The Enigma Order

Amra wrote:

Xzar: how much dmg does your dots do? 4-5k with your gear? a normal shadowbolt.. how much? You have and "unbreakable fear" that heals you on top of your normal fear and a succubus or a rampaging warrior pet. YOU DONT NEED TO CRITT. I get that udaude tjuva with will of the forsaken can breake seduce, but common... you can even summon healing pots.

Well, you make it sound like I have all those things at once...

If I spec for the rampaging warrior pet, then I will have one instant cast dot that does ~2000 damage over 24 seconds. My shadow bolts will do about 1300 normal hits when there are no debuffs on the target (this is a 2.5 second cast, mind you, so it requires some sort of cc on the target or it must be an opener). If I really really want a second instant cast dot then my shadow bolt becomes a 3 second cast spell.

If I spec for dots I will do about 4.8k damage over 24 seconds (if I use the instant cast dots). There are drains and another dot (with cast time) that I can apply on top of this, but this would require that I stand still and that is usually not the playing style of heavy affliction. My maximum Shadow Bolt crit with this spec (and my gear) will be 1650 on a target with no debuffs

The succubus is absolutely out of the question combined with dots so those two rule each other out. The succubus seduce-thingy is purely for nuking (and praying for crits) strategies.

In the end, I don't find 4.8k damage that scary when it's applied over 24 seconds. Some of you can deal that amount of damage within few seconds. If we can fear you for the entire duration then sure, but that usually is not possible.

I also don't find a potential 2,6k crit with a Shadow Bolt that scary. If I add Curse of Shadow on the target, and have two Shadow Bolt crits in a row, then the second Shadow Bolt will crit for 3,4k. Still hardly enough to oneshot you.

Mind you, that ToEP and ZHC are not part of my gear (they are in the bank)

EDIT:
This is beginning to sound more like a "that particular class has it all"-rant, or?

Last edited by xzar (2006-12-31 07:20:15)

Amra wrote:

Edit: Xzar... add that shit up and it is scary. You know it. Dont dumb it down so much, because you know better. Even add the imp fireballs and it is a lot of damage with a lot of controll.

It's alot if I can keep distance from my target, but you can say the same for any ranged class. A hunter will do a lot more damage with his autoshoot and ranged attacks than I will do by applying dots. I guess it just seems more chaotic when you see the numbers fly over your head from 3-4 dots rather than high spikes every 3-4 seconds. We are talking damage over 24 seconds here (a dps of ~200).

And every single dot tick has a high chance of breaking fear. My fear usually breaks on the very first corruption tick

It's true that the crit spikes from nukes (if you are not dot specced) will have the potential to deal alot of damage, but again - as I said - the highest Shadow Bolt crit you'll get from the gear I use is 2.6k unless there is some sort of debuff on you already.

That's not dumbing it down - that's fact. I think you are dumbing it down, by saying we have this and that, when it involves completely different specs that rule out each other.

I could dumb it down to this, but it would still be fact too
Spec 1: 3-4 Dots, low crits, no Felguard
Spec 2: 1-2 dots, high crits, no Felguard
Spec 3: 1-2 dots, low crits, Felguard

EDIT:
If I use Soulfire I can do a much higher crit (with spec 2) but that would require 4 seconds of cast time, 1 minute cooldown, and a reagent. How much damage can you do if you are allowed to go nuts for 4 seconds and you happen to crit?

Last edited by xzar (2006-12-31 16:29:44)

Bankropt wrote:

sweter wrote:

Amra wrote:

Here is the deal: a rogue stunnlocking you from full HP until dead recuires mad skills, and/or use of all cooldowns,

And 1-shotting anyone as a mage requires no skills, but MAD gear and use of all cooldowns. Same thing.

This post from Sweter has the one balancing factor. It is true that whenever a mage (I'll keep mage only as the example here) oneshots someone with a huge crit with trinket / AP on, the act itself doesnt require any skill. But to get to the position where that mage is requires huge amounts of skill and time otherwise. This is due to all the +dmg-gear / t2 or t3 and the trinket. It has required the mage good skill, good teamwork (aka guild), and lots of time to get those things. He has used skill for a long time to obtain those items that enable him such power.

HALLELUJAH!

And besides: dear warriors, take a look at those two videos: http://video.decimation.eu/

This guy uses state of the art fury gear. How do You feel when someone says: hm, this guy rocks too much for a plate user with 4,5k HP, some clothies are being instagibbed, rogues dropping like flies, druids cant even get a heal off, he's almost raping Patchwerk? That's the same thing.

Many months ago we've all seen the sick "what happens when a fury warrior gets Thunderfury" video, after which TF has been nerfed. You felt it was unfair. Now think about mages, that also think that calling for a nerf after seeing some top-notch players oneshotting other is not right.

And my final words. When I catch a warrior in a sheep, he's always dead -> go check my "Mage stunlock" topic on the mage forums. Is there really a difference between being sheeped and owned 10 seconds ago with no chances of defense, and between one-shotting? I dont thinks so. At least I always preffer shorter corpserunning time.

Amra wrote:

And dont give me that rogues stunlocked me from 100% to 0. Dont you think i have been stunlocked? It is very hard and very rare that they can stun over a long time without you having some openig to manuvre. I have plate, i have HP but still, i know whats what. It just is NOT the same.

No doubt You haven't been stunlocked by rogues to death - cos You wear plate. So it's not the same for YOU. But it's the same for cloth users.

Most mages die when ambushed by rogues. Period. If they even touch us, 90% of duels and one on one situations end up with us running from GY 10 seconds after.

Amra wrote:

If a rogue stunnlocks a mage to death then he deserves to die. You figure it out.

Says a guy that played a mage for nearly 2 years. Oh wait...

OK, lemme ask any seal/fate rogue what he thinks of Amra's opinion. Jolt, what do You do against any non-frost mage when You've got all cooldowns ready?

EDIT: Ah, Amra, heared of cloak of shadows?

Last edited by sweter (2006-12-31 17:34:58)

sweter wrote:

And besides: dear warriors, take a look at those two videos: http://video.decimation.eu/

V1 was done before the rage normalization which put a bit of a hurt on warr DPS with the best endgame gear so don't expect a warrior to do 1500 DPS in that gear at least. And yes, I can understand why rage was normalized because if it wasn't then at some point we would get a full rage bar from one hit when blizz introduced the weapons for it.

What bugs me most about rage normalization is that they will have to redo it AGAIN when they release a new expansion pack with better items and higher levels because the same scaling will happen at higher levels than 70 with better weapons.
Another thing that annoys me is that blizz basically said "to hell with class balance until TBC is launched and people get to 70" with the release of 2.0 because that is what has happened.

Another thing is that blizz actually buffed warlocks in TBC due to the fact that they had too low PvE DPS which, while it does make sense to me from a PvE standpoint, it doesn't really make any sense for me when looking at the PvP perspective.

everything that has happened in 2.0 has basically made many say "fair enough that they are doing all these changes now, but I don't want to play a class that's gonna suck for the next one and a half months so I will stop paying for a game I won't play, then start again at TBC launch" which alot of people seem to have done. Either that or reroll to another class at least.

Last edited by Draken (2006-12-31 17:55:46)

*Sigh* Blink

Yes there is a build that kills mages and locks as a rogue, but it is 100% CD based. There is a lot of "if"'s here. I am talking about the general picture of pvp. And I feel that you are supporting what i say Sweter. You know that 2 shotting is common. You know it is easy. Dont give me pain just because you don't want to "justify" being a mage. It's not your fault. Im not saying you suck. I feel paladin is ez-mode to. But I have never said that Dena was no skilled because of it.
And once again Xzar you surprise me with a little period of spitefulness. After I explain things you come up with this reply.

xzar wrote:

So in short, mages and warlocks don't require skill to pvp with compared to warriors and rogues.

Good luck getting people to respect your opinions with statements like this. I suggest you read what me, Nemus and others have written and take a time out if you still feel like acting up.

Last edited by Amra (2006-12-31 18:13:54)

Amra wrote:

xzar wrote:

So in short, mages and warlocks don't require skill to pvp with compared to warriors and rogues.

Good luck getting people to respect your opinions with statements like this. I suggest you read what me, Nemus and others have written and take a time out if you still feel like acting up.

that was what i read out of your posts too, amra. that its "too simple" to play a mage. all you have to do is press a button and you will oneshot a warrior. But i doubt this is the case. We have many mages on these forums. why not ask them how many times this happens? my guess is that some have never even accomplished this. and like i have said, i still get owned hard by some warriors where they kill me before i get chance to throw off my close to useless defense: a fear that gets resisted (or immune).

For me - as a priest - this is exactly the same: Getting one-shotted by a mage, or getting raped by a warrior without any countermeasure. In both cases, the fight is over in a few secs, and in both cases, my oponent has 3 buttons to push.

edit:
and for some information. every time, and i mean every time i go into a battleground, i get owned by rogues at least once. I can do one of three things:
- Maybe i get off a fear at 10%, in wich case they break it after 2 secs. (can last 10secs)
- I can get up a SWP, wich doesnt do me any good since i die before it does more than 500dmg
- I can shield myelf. This is the best option, since it can give me time to do the two things above. But im not immune to stun when shielded, so its only like i had 900 more HP.

Last edited by Obscure (2006-12-31 18:48:30)

Obscure wrote:

that was what i read out of your posts too, amra. that its "too simple" to play a mage.

Thank you.

From reading the replies above I get the impression that people are starting to think I'm an idiot.

There you go. no point of continuing a fruitless discussion when you all agree on that point. Mages can one-shot people. No need to take it out on your own guildmates. Just find a way to counter it. Make sure you have a paladin or a priest in your heel. For a mage, it would be easy to take out any class 1vs1, even priests, but i dont whine about mages, cause i get owned more by warriors and rogues. But if i team up with a warrior, we can own several players with imba gear. That is the whole point of this game; to team up.

And rest assured, you wont get one-shotted by a holy priest, and if you are fury, you wont get any-shotted either.

Obscure wrote:

For me - as a priest - this is exactly the same: Getting one-shotted by a mage, or getting raped by a warrior without any countermeasure. In both cases, the fight is over in a few secs, and in both cases, my oponent has 3 buttons to push.

Which 3 buttons would the warrior push?

Edit: Think I got one, Charge+Recklessness+Mortal Strike? Or maybe not, can the warrior press any of the 3 buttons more than once?

Ahywho, seems this discussion is getting somewhat out of hand. I would just like to say that make a couple of things clear from my part. I have nothing against mages or warlocks, im sure neither is no more overpowered than any other class in pvp, as I have only played melee classes I cant really say without assuming. What I find unfair is, like i wrote before, is that one player has the ability(chance) to kill another player by the use of one single spell, if warriors had a spell which could do that I would still think it was unfair. I also know that this does not happen often.

As for mage and warlock being "too easy" to play, I really doubt that. Again, I have never played one, but im pretty sure this is not the case. Sure, a warlock running around only using dots sounds easy enough, but I doubt he would kill many players, except for maybe in AV. Using 10 different skills in pvp inst necessarily harder than using 3.

Last edited by Nemus (2006-12-31 20:28:44)

Obscure wrote:

That is the whole point of this game; to team up.

Wooohooo! That's the point, finally. So, let's say it straight: warrior + healer is the only combo in the game that can fight for x minutes non-stop. Mages in BG's run OOM after a minute of a heavy fight, with or without healing. And that's a good thing about playing warriors: get a Chimp and go for 200k dmg in AB.

Obscure wrote:

intercept, bloodthirst, execute? max bloodthirst crit is what? 2k? and the warrior gets in some extra attacks betewwn the skills.

Assuming the warrior starts the fight with 100 rage i guess that is doable, with top of the line gear.