The Enigma Order

You've got some wrong assumptions.

First, frostbolt doesnt take 100% of Your +DMG from EQ, because +DMG calculations are based on 3,5 second casts (untalented, so fireball always takes 100%).

Second, You forget about Spellpower talent, which gives +50% more crit damage and Mind mastery which also gives some more damage. Something like THIS: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla … 0000000000
would be a famous and deadly build that is capable of instagibbing people every 3 minutes.

Third, http://www.academiaarsarcana.de/spellda … wer_US.htm It's a good calc, check the fire/frost difference.

BTW, screw that luck-based shit. I preffer twoshotting every... 6 seconds ;>

This is why people are whining about arcane mages and why they annoy me so much All the other classes are ok really. Also most classes don't have 5k HP, people like to use warriors as an example since they generally have the most HP and can only break snares once every 5 mins using trinket (1v1 ofc).

Ofc whats really gay about arcane is that NOTHING can stop it. At least with Sweters fire combo all it takes is a teammate to get some heals in (CS on GCD) or do anything to CC the mage so although its strong 1v1, it can be countered in 2v2 etc (hence it is not overpowered, just a good tactic).

xzar wrote:

Amra wrote:

Great post dena!! I feel this says it all. you dont have to critt to get ppl down with anything near those numbers. Add slowing effects, blink and imobalising then i feel it should be enought to get ppl to shut up.

Don't forget that those numbers are based on "best case scenario" on a warrior in berserker stance, and it happens 1/10 (?) of the times so on a 3 minute timer that would be once every 30 minutes.

What is your best case scenario now that we are dreaming?

ROFL, once every 30 mins, that sounds familiar to warriors

sweter wrote:

You've got some wrong assumptions.

First, frostbolt doesnt take 100% of Your +DMG from EQ, because +DMG calculations are based on 3,5 second casts (untalented, so fireball always takes 100%).

Second, You forget about Spellpower talent, which gives +50% more crit damage and Mind mastery which also gives some more damage. Something like THIS: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla … 0000000000
would be a famous and deadly build that is capable of instagibbing people every 3 minutes.

Third, http://www.academiaarsarcana.de/spellda … wer_US.htm It's a good calc, check the fire/frost difference.

BTW, screw that luck-based shit. I preffer twoshotting every... 6 seconds ;>

That means my numbers are slightly to high.

The spellpower talent is calculated with the Pyro.

I didnt take the Mind Mastery into the calculations, but it gives 25% of your total intellect as spelldmg(up to style). So lets give this mage 400 int, that equals 100 more spellpower.

You don't need more than 3-4k of damage to instagib the other classes though It's not just a warrior vs mage thing. It's an Arcane Mage vs Any Class thing imo.

Last edited by Beardstorm (2006-12-31 18:07:08)

I usually sit down and /lol when Deathcoil is on cooldown and a warrior/rogue gets into melee range of me.

Well CS has 30 yard range as do silence + dispell (not sure). Blind is short range, same for paladin stuns (but they can bubble), only a stupid AP POM pyro mage would get that close before letting rip

Last edited by Beardstorm (2006-12-31 22:20:19)

From a warriors point of view,

I think Beardy is right in saying that it's not a mage vs. warrior problem, it's a mage vs. any class if that mage chooses to use PoM+Pyro pwnage. And for battlegrounds in particular, no mage is any more powerfull than your random warrior, this is basically because of two factors: a, in a battleground, you go head on head always and b, the mage does not have half of EPL to play around with as kiting ground.

There are a few things that are fucked up however with this, for example you can have a mage running up to the WSG roof unseen, target, pyro, PoM+Pyro, and you are pretty much dead - now, this kind of scenario is exactly why people whine about overpowered mages (which has nothing to do with overpoweredness at all, just fucked up game mechanics/pvp rules). What i'm trying to say is: if you get killed by a rogue/warrior, he is in your face dealing frontload dmg. If you get killed by a mage, you might be dead before you know what hit you, where it came from or who it was. Shooting a Pyro through the trunk of a tree, through buildings etc. etc. (ie: fucked up game mechanics).

There was this video floating around a while back with a mage using flying mount, dismount high in the air over a city, slow fall, target, PoM+Pyropwn and blink out. Stuff like that should simply not be possible, nomather how fun it is. On the same not, there was a staged 6sec burst test as well, the mage did Pyro, PoM+Pyro where both critted for a bit over 6k. That makes for a 12k burst + the DoT, and we haven't even had a look at what happends if you start adding instant spells on that afterwards. Long story short about this is that warrior frontload dps has been rightfully normalized by enrage nerfing, instant attack normalization and rage normalization - there is no way i can do 12k dmg (even theoretically) in 6 seconds becuase i simply cannot generate enough resources to do it. This kind of normalization on burst dmg has not yet been done to mages in the same degree, thus you have these "instagib" scenarios - and even if it isn't a oneshot, that hardly matters at all when the initial shot can be followed up with instant casts.

In sense, i think mages are fine, and i think warriors are fine - i just think mages need burst normalization in the same sense as warriors needed rage normalization, that being said, i dont think mages should suffer from lower dps because of less burst, just not being able to instagib anymore. And i can without any problems identify how frustrating it must be to be a mage in WSG, because any statistics would probably show that mages very often get splatted before they do much at all in WSG.

So, to leave this i'm gonna link a video (one of my alltime favorite WoW movies), not because he's Overpowered, but because he is probably one of the best WoW players i have ever seen: http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?doc … p;q=vurtne

I would in no way be ashamed to loose against him (check out his other videos as well, should be 4 PvP movies by his mage).

Chae

Didn't notice the lock on the other thread, and this was already written, sozzy for that. I wrote this before, and held back on posting, but i have re-read everything now and i honestly dont think this post is bad in any way. Delete if moderator disagree obviously...

Forum moderation Lession part1:
Do not lock threads, remove unsuitable posts in the thread instead.

I went through this and picked some quotes that I didn't see anyone else pick up or answer, and thus tried to give an answer to them (sorry if they where already answered, and sorry for backtracking the discussion).

It seems to me like there's just a general lack game knowledge at some major points made in these discussions.... And I apologize prior to writing this for taking the "high road" on some of these quotes, but yes: i find it disturbingly sad and wrong that after 2 years of WoW'ing, there's still a grave lack of game play knowledge right here.

Xzar wrote:

Look at it this way:
In my own experience, for every time I've been one-shotted by a mage, I've been one-shotted 50 times by rogues.

I am sorry to say that I agree even though I think it's pretty much a weak and a mute point. You wear cloth, it's natural that the class that would oneshot you is the "anti-cloth", but more interestingly i'll redo your quote so that it fits a warriors PoV: Look at it this way: In my own experience, for every time I've been one-shotted by a rogue, I've been one-shotted 50 times by a mage.

Sweter wrote:

I can't see any difference between:

- a mage that doesnt give you any chance of reacting, because he 1-shots You

and

- any other class (rogue, hunter, etc) that doesnt give You any chance of reacting, because he stunlocks You or CC's or silences You and crits for Xk damage before you can even cast some instant.

The biggest difference is that stuns and CC's can be countered with tactical advantages (pvp trinket, stun imunity etc.), whereas full HP to 0% kind of frontload dmg cannot.

Xzar wrote:

But saying that you constantly have to take these precautions to avoid exposing yourself to rogues...
...could I use the same logic and say that warriors could take precautions to avoid getting oneshotted by equipping more stamina gear and wearing less strength/agility-only gear?

It shouldn't be necessary to point out what's wrong with this quote, but i'll do it anyway: Rolling on a PvP server, playing outdoor and _not_ keeping your health up between kills is simply put a very stupid choice. You are also thinning out the essence of the discussion with a digression about changing gear to prevent being oneshotted, but let's take this road for your informational purposes: 1, you can wear more HP gear, you still take the dmg. 2, you can wear fire resistance gear, take less dmg. 3, then you are once again allover royally butfucked if a frostmage comes along, or a rogue. Point being, you optimize your gear for the "allover" foe, not for a specific enemy. Any class does this, so it shouldn't really be news to anyone...

Sweter wrote:

And besides: dear warriors, take a look at those two videos: http://video.decimation.eu/

Here we go with the lack of patch awareness again. I'll keep this one short and simple: this is why rage generation was normalized, it is not possible anymore, and in majority was never possible. Why? Because there is only 1 boss in the game that completely ignores aggro table after engagement, how many bosses does the game have that are aggro sensitive? Enough said really...

Sweter wrote:

No doubt You haven't been stunlocked by rogues to death - cos You wear plate. So it's not the same for YOU. But it's the same for cloth users.

Lack of gameplay knowledge in this case: I dont know if Onetwojango hangs around here anymore, but I believe both Onetwojango and Jolt have killed my warrior without getting hit in duels. That is a stunlock from full to nil health wearing plate right there for you (twice). On the other hand i dont think that's wrong (as opposed to mage instagibbing), because this feat actually requires skillfull play from Onetwojango and/or Jolt.

Obscure wrote:

intercept, bloodthirst, execute? max bloodthirst crit is what? 2k? and the warrior gets in some extra attacks betewwn the skills.

/sigh Obscure...
Intercept takes 10rage, Bloodthirst takes another 30, execute takes another 15(10talented), we still do not get any rage from hitting on a shielded target, so where did all this rage come from? Your scenario first of all is not likely, it simply is not doable

Beardstorm wrote:

Hang on.

Amra: Is your beef with mages one/two shotting other classes with instant AP POM macros (which I agree with) or is it with warriors being vulnerable to snares in solo combat (which I don't agree with)?

Well said, and i feel the need to add that with Second Wind as an addition to arms tree, the warrior class is close to "fine" for PvP purposes. Problem is not warrior being weak anymore, it is simply too much burst/reliable burst in the mage class, and that is not a warrior problem.



To end it off, Oneshotting is wrong nomather who does it, or where it's being done. If the WoW universe is rock, paper and scissors build, then i acknowledge that class X should have a upper hand against me as a warrior. However, i would like the fight to last more than 6 seconds so that IF he fucks up, i can actually win the fight IF i play good. PoM+Pyro has absolutely nothing to do with skillfull play in that sense, and i think anyone can agree to that.

Xzar wrote:

Look at it this way:
In my own experience, for every time I've been one-shotted by a mage, I've been one-shotted 50 times by rogues.

I was trying to point this out (that I wrote a later post).

Xzar wrote:

In the end, all I'm really trying to say is that there are so many other "imbalanced" aspects in the game, that I don't understand why the mage-oneshotting gets so much attention

Xzar wrote:

But saying that you constantly have to take these precautions to avoid exposing yourself to rogues...
...could I use the same logic and say that warriors could take precautions to avoid getting oneshotted by equipping more stamina gear and wearing less strength/agility-only gear?

This was a rhetorical question that I answered in the next sentence when we were discussing precautions to avoid being ambushed by rogues. Basically I was trying to say that it is not feasible to always take these precautions (bandaging instead of eating, shielding up when sitting). Perhaps the example for warriors were poor, a better one would be that it is not feasible for you to always run around in defensive stance in the off chance that a mage might sheep and nuke you. Of course the quote doesn't make sense when you remove the context.

And the thread was locked because people were being called idiots for posting their thoughts on this subject. Some people don't call others idiots directly, but insinuate it in their follow up posts. Both things are unnecessary and unfitting.

Obscure wrote:

I locked that thread for a reason. you warriors are way too easely offended about your class. and, even if you dont want to admit it (and will probably deny it), you show the same ignorance towards other classes as you claim "we" have towards warriors. Not many warriors i know have a caster alt at 60. any class has the ability to kill another class within 6 seconds, given the right circumstances. and from my point of view (both as teammate and as enemy), warriors are not weak. not in PvE, not in PvP.
Team up with a healer if you feel you die too often.

I do not want more bullshit like i saw in the thread i locked. Go to official forum if you have more complaints about mages. not here.

As a "moderator" of these forums I really feel you should refrain from generalizing like this. Also remeber that you do not have a lvl 60 warrior, and no matter how much you have heard of read about the class you can not justify statments like this:

Obscure wrote:

warriors are not weak. not in PvE, not in PvP

before having actually experienced it for yourself.