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#1 2007-06-29 20:24:33

Mojorising
Officer
From: Odense (Bolbro), Denmark
Registered: 2005-09-07
Posts: 3845
Website

Druids - my, their and your thoughts.

I am sitting down to write this, without really knowing where i want to go with this post.
It is mainly aimed toward feral druids, but it includes the balance and resto tree, to give some intresting alternatives.

I have heard several comments, and read alot of posts about what to go for, as the ultimate tank, and still i miss something, more precisly, how to be the ultimate tanking druid, with the possibilities we have atm as druid tanks in Enigma Order.
Also i have given resto and balance some thoughts, and im writing this, in hope that im not the only one with these thoughts about the druid class.

I also often ask myself; Is beeing a druid tank, really what my guild needs from me? Are we to many feral druids, and are we greedy when it comes to loot, since we are sharing loottable with priests and warriors (and resto druids), that in some eyes, are more important, than the feral tank or dpsing druid.

Also, i want to know what is optimal for druids as a class. - Our future, strength and weaknesses in raids etc, and im writing this in the hope, that the druid group will read it, and end up to be the meanest druids machines out there wink
Also im doing this post, to share my thoughts and ideas with everyone, who might be intrested in listning. This is not a "what to do" post. Dont comment as it is, but share your thoughts behind the stuff i bring up. If i did'nt want feedback, i would not write this. This is also not a "druid only" post, but a post that i hope other classes will share their points of view about.

Feral druids:
Feral druids always complained, that there were no set for us in retail. Even with the introduction of AQ40 sets, we were faced with a more hybrid gear, than an actual feral set. When TBC got introduced, we also got introduced a more capable feral tree, together with alot of new items with feral stats, even a "..of the eagle" called "of the bandit" and "of the champion", that really suported cat and bear druids out there.

We also got introduced to the new T4 and T5 sets, and alot of druids suddenly realised, that the nightmare with a healing set raid-instance drop only were over. Many of us was very happy about this. Many of us finally saw this as an oppotunity to do what we thought we should do, pre retail raiding.. A jack in the box class, beeing able to do it all, but not as powerful as primary classes, but with our own touch.

Now we are all starting to collect our T4 and some even T5 pieces, trying to be the best out there, whatever it meens like a feral, moonkin or as restoration druid.

I want to share my thoughts about the name "feral", before going further.
Feral druids... both hated and loved in instances, but what exactly are ment by a "feral" druid? For most people, (including me from time to time) feral are often linked with a druid, that can step in, as the warrior or rogue in a group or a raid.
This however, is not quite true. While we know shadowpriest for beeing shadow dps, protection warriors as tanks, or frostmages as some who concentrate on frost spells, a feral druid is not only a tank or a melee oriented dps class.

A feral druid can be a melee oriented druid variation of a rogue, or an imitation of the warrior or paladin tank.
The phrase "feral" are actually just a word to descripe what tree we are focusing on, but not what specific role we are geared for.
The reason druids do so well in both forms are most of the time based on the following factors;
1. Bearform have stats aiming for tanking, while catform has stats aiming for dps. - You can compare this to the 3 warrior stances;
battlestance: the druid in casterform, with out any "special abilities.
Defensive stance: bearform. this is where it gets exciting. The armor from items are multiplied up, giving stuff like agility another role than just something i need to have to crit. with agi supporting both armor, crit and dodge makes it very nice for tanking, as it is the main focus of our defense, since we cant block, like the defensive stance warrior can.
Bezerger stance; catform. this is our way to dps targets down fast. Suddenly, agility is not used for armor, but for crit, and in this stance, things like strenght can be more important, since it grant us more attack power.
2. The druid have collected a dps and tank set, allowing the druid to be a support class, filling out the missing spot in a group or a raid.
3. the set consist of simular stats, that, depending on what form we are in, are rewarding us a different outcome. - This however does not meen that the druid can dish up rogueish dmg and at the same time be able to tank something, as well as if the druid was assigned as a pure dps or pure tank, and theirfor would exchange some parts of their gear to something else. This is also the reason if you group with a druid who are tanking, they will roll on dps gear too, since they often use catform to grind when soloing, and not bearform.
This is also the reason we dont want to roll warriors or rogues. As a feral druid, we love to tank and be able to dps, what ever the situation is.. For some reasons, alot of players don't understand this, unless they have a druid of their own, or some insight in how, the druid forms work.

Gear:
What is the best for us?
Malorne is an awsome feral set, so is nordrassil, but what about differences in the sets? Should we go for Nordrassil as a feral tank, or maybe be more "large" about the feral T5 set? Dont get me wrong.. im totally in love with the Nordrassil set, but is it really worth it, to spend alot of dkp for the intire set, and especially with a place like SSC in mind, where we should try and focus not only on great tanking gear, but also on resistances if we are their as tanks.

Let me try and be more specific..

Malorne Harness (feral set)
Armor 2674   
Strength 181   
Agility    150   
Stamina    158   
Intellect 79
Hit Rating 12       
Crit Rating 24               

http://www.madshansen.dk/malorne.jpg

Nordrassil Harness (feral set)
Armor 2977
Strength 208   
Agility    161       
Stamina    196       
Intellect 80   
Hit Rating 32   

http://www.madshansen.dk/nordrassil.jpg
source: http://sjrich.com/beargear/

On the two pictures, i havent included gems, since the site wont let me custumize it, eg; 2 blue gem sockets etc, but i have encluded enchants on back, chest, head, legs and weapon. I've also decided to inset some easy to get gear; (questrewards belt and bracers - earthwarden, defensering from Old hillsbrad normal run and the exhalted violet tower ring. trinkets are badge with might are hard to get, but not impossible and mark of tyranni.)
Also note that the gear only have 405 defense because of the missing gems.

For tanks, both sets lack defense. With a total of 415 defense combined with the "survival of the fittest talent, we will get crit immune against bosses.
- why is this something we need to know?? You can not consider yourself as a serious tank, if you cant get the needed defense. If you are to tank, remember that armor, dodge and stamina are your primary defense against bosses. If bosses are able to crit you, you can be dead within a second. Beeing crit immune also makes you a more reliable tank for the healers, as you wont be as spiky to heal, like warriors tend to be.
What if you have more than the required defense? is that a waste? - It sertainly are not smile
Every defense skill over 415 adds to dodge (+parry and block for wrriors) so defense are never wasted if you want to make the best as a tank in raids.

I know the Nordrassil Harness has more armor, agi and stamina compared to the Malorne Harness. Does this meen that you are going to be a better tank if you wear Nordrassil? IMO, no. It is perfectly possible to reach the current armor cap with Malorne. What i see is the different between the sets are the dps possibilites. These sets, especially the Nordrassil was designed to druids in catform, where the malorne set is focusing on the druids in bearform.

This i back up with the setbonuses in mind...

The Nordrassil feral 2 set bonus are;
When you shift out of Bear Form, Dire Bear Form, or Cat Form, your next Regrowth spell takes (-2).1 fewer sec. to cast.
This setbonus is useless as a tank. You are tanking so you cant be forced out of form to heal your self, even if regrowth became an instant cast, you still had to consider the fact, that you would loose your rage, and the global cooldown would not make you go back into form imidialy.

The Malorne 2 set bonus however are;
Your melee attacks in Bear Form and Dire Bear Form have a chance to generate 10 additional rage.
Hello rage!! it even procs alot too big_smile - rage is something we can use as tanks. Right now, as it is, druid tanks have no problems with rage, but this bonus is espicially nice if you are MT2 or an OT. It also helps in cases where you know healing on you will be critical, and you need to pop feral
regeneration.


compairing the 4th setbonuses i hope speaks for it self;

Malorne:
Increases your armor by 1400 in Bear Form and Dire Bear Form.
again 1400 armor added to the 2674 armor from the set. Enough for me with 4/5 parts of malorne to reach armor cap in tankgear.

Nordrassil:
Your Shred ability deals an additional 75 damage, and your Lacerate ability does an additional 15 per application.
15 more from lacerate = more dmg = more treat. - this can be discussed to be more usefull than the armor cap, but you can gain treat from enchants, gems, raidbuffs etc too, just like you can gain armor. Personally i go for armor at this state, since i dont have to have a paladin with devotion aura, but with frost aura instead, if that is the case. This i think is a matter of what you are wearing in addition to your 4 (or 5) piece Nordrassil.

To sum up what im trying to say so far is; Dont waste gems and money on defense enchants/gems for T5. If you want a T5 feral set, you should focus on hit, crit and more damage, and instead use malorne for tanking.

i still need to update my neck and 1 ring and exchange my head enchant with the defense enchant, but as you can see, this is very nice tanking stats for a druid wearing 4/5 T4 items;
http://www.madshansen.dk/mojostats.jpg


Balance druids:
As it is now, balance druids are, what the feral druids were "pre TBC". As balance you are capable of dishing dmg out, but you lack the utility that the feral druid has in different cases;
1.The feral druid does not spend mana on anything else than shapeshifting. This meens that you cant support heal for a sertain amount of time, without loosing mana, and theirfor, not able to sustand your current damage output, like etc a cat druid can.
2.Your tools are limited. are you forced away from arcane, you only have 1 direct dps source (wrath) to use. - In addition, druids have the worst crowd control of all classes. A weak cyclone, that only gives a few seconds, a hamstring, that only work outdoors, and complete lack of forms, (yes, i see bearform and catform as almost useless for a caster druid, especially in raids.
3.agro reduction. IF you get agro, you have the moonkin armor to help you take the hits for a few seconds, but if your tank cant get it off you, you are almost as good as dead.
Thats why i see leather balance drops as much more valuable than cloth, to a sertain degree.

Gear:
When it comes to choosing between Malorne or Nordrassil regalia i see the difference as;

Malorne:
2:Your harmful spells have a chance to restore up to 120 mana.
4: Reduces the cooldown on your Innervate ability by (-48) sec.
mana regen. You last longer in long fights. Innervate will go from 6 min to 5.12 sec, and everytime you cast, you have a chance to recive some of the mana spend.

VS

Nordrassil:
2:When you shift out of Moonkin Form, your next Regrowth spell costs 450 less mana.
4: Increases your Starfire damage against targets afflicted with Moonfire or Insect Swarm by 10%.
defense and offensive. You will be able to "backup heal", or save the healers mana a bit, by healing ourself for less mana + you have a chance to get our spells to work together. This ofcause depends on, that the mob are not immune to nature or arcane.

I dont have much to say about moonkins as a spec. I know they can do alot of dmg, but it stands in the way for the "support" role, that the druids are -like it or not, this goes for all druids, no matter what spec we are.
Maybe Malorne is the best way to go for the balance druid, since its setbonuses are focused around mana regen. It really doesnt give you more dmg, compaired to the Nordrassil 4th set bonus.

Untill balance druids get some better raid tools, i dont see the use of a balance spec in raids, but more in 5 man instances or PvP. it is abit like the sublity rogue, where you rely on fast fights, just with far less options as a doomkin.


Resto druids:
I have been trying out the resto aspect of raiding in TBC, but im not utter impressed with the results. Tree of life are a very powerfull restoration tool, if it is used in the right situations, but i belive, that it from time to time, are not worth speccing. Either in combats, where hots simply cant keep up with the damage output from a boss, or where it simply gets "in the way" of the healing flow.
On the other hand, im very impressed with the resto druids preformance in Arena and battlegrounds. Were i to PvP with my druid fulltime, it would be as resto, without tree of life.

Maybe im not used to the change from the old resto druid, where downranking healing touch was some of the most powerfull spam healing a druid could do. This is a matter of what each individual feels comfortable with, and my intention with this post is not to discuss restoration druids in raids.
Remember that im an old resto druid, and have been restoration for along time while raiding, and back then i loved it. I was also restoration/hybrid when i lvled up 0-60, due to the fact, that natures swiftness and innervate was what i considered the strongest asset of the druid at that time.

Let's break the restoration T4 and T5 set down to their setbonuses..

Malorne rainment:
2: Your helpful spells have a chance to restore up to 120 mana.
4: Reduces the cooldown on your Nature's Swiftness ability by (-24) sec.
Just like the balance set, these bonuses focus on mana regen + less cooldowns. For malorne it's also required to have natures swiftness, wich are a trainable talent and optional. This meens that they force you to choose a talent to get anything out of the setbonus. But since natures swiftness are such a powerfull talent, optional after only spending 21 talents in the tree, i cant really imagine any serious restoration spec without this skill.

VS

Nordrassil rainment:
2: Increases the duration of your Regrowth spell by 6 sec.
4: Increases the final amount healed by your Lifebloom spell by 150.
Both setbonuses are additions to your current spells, with in the end makes you are more "powerfull" healer. 6 seconds on regrowth are alot. depending on your +healing, it really add alot of healing, with out costing extra. Lifebloom are a bit more tricky, especially when you are multiple healers, since it ticks like a hot, but heals a really nice amount after the dot. It can be wasted on a tank with full HP, but at the same time, it can land at a critical spot, leaving all healers a bit more "safe" since they will have the time to get off a big heal.

From beeing the most powerfull spec for a druid raiding wise, restoration druids are now on pair with feral druids. This is the 2 types of specs, viable in raids, and what people always ask you for. From beeing the head on majority spec for raiding druids, we start to see that the ferals are just as visible in raids, as restoration is.


The conclusion:
Restoration has for a long time been the way to go. With the introduction of TBC, things were about to change that to a whole new direction.
Prior to TBC, i bet 90% of all druids were restoration. (im talking about raiding druids here)
There were ofcause some, who were feral, but it was a disliked spec to many, and many raidleaders had to little knowlegde about the feral druid, to give them a chance in raids. This cannot be blamed. Blizzard introduced the druid class so late before the game release, that there wasnt any items for druids (see the part, where i am talking about "of the bandit/champion") making the druid class lacking in many ways. Druids were almost bound to the restotree to stand a chance against primary classes, and even here, we lacked a bit.
This lasted almost untill AQ40, where we got our first hybrid gear, and some non-set leather items, that we could wear for better dps. Where rogues got their dmg from T1 to T3, druids were stuck with rogue dungion set 1, LW crafted rogue items and some few world epic drops. (warden staff is a nice example) This meens, that the only feral druids who had a chance was those who; PvP'ed for the hybrid feral set, or those, like us Enigma druids, who had access to AQ40, with are a small amount of the players out there at that time.


If i am to conclude anything about the T4 and T5, it would be;
Tanks go for T4
Cats go for T5
Healers go for T5
Balance druids awaits a buff, before even considering to bid on T4 or T5.

As i see it, all tanking druids should aim for the T4 to start with. Compared with the right accessories you will fastly become a "perfect" tank (not thinking about resistance fights here), because you already have some really nice ulitily to customize your tanking gear.
T5 will only grant you slightly better stats, and are better suited on healers or warriors as it is now. This does not meen that you shouldnt pass on T5, but instead ask yourself, is it really nessesary to outbid everyone, when i mostly gain dps enchancements by it. -And if you really want T5, then ask yourself, how can i benefit the guild. In my eyes the Nordrassil restoration set are superior in everything, and are by far the most rewarding when it comes to raiding in a guild, where its not about "me", but about "us".

I really hope that by this post, i set some new thoughts into you druids, and the rest, standing on the side, looking at us. I recommend that you all reply to this, to help us druids get better, and preform the best in raids, in the future to come.


by mojorising.

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#2 2007-06-29 21:13:23

Lydo
Guild Member
Registered: 2005-08-15
Posts: 1967

Re: Druids - my, their and your thoughts.

The wall of text makes you blind.

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#3 2007-06-29 21:35:54

arilia
Forum User
Registered: 2006-09-01
Posts: 800

Re: Druids - my, their and your thoughts.

Solok, write something similar about Warlocks, be done Sunday, Oki? smile


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#4 2007-06-29 21:49:15

Apox
Founding Member
From: Norway
Registered: 2005-02-11
Posts: 5353
Website

Re: Druids - my, their and your thoughts.

<3 Druids smile


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#5 2007-06-30 06:34:17

Theredon
Guild Member
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 2006-08-07
Posts: 760

Re: Druids - my, their and your thoughts.

Nice stuff Mojo smile

Last edited by Theredon (2007-06-30 06:35:10)

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#6 2007-06-30 07:24:00

Baloth
Guild Friend
From: Groningen, Netherlands
Registered: 2005-07-18
Posts: 4000

Re: Druids - my, their and your thoughts.

reading this at 4:21 AM does NOT make sense, someone gimme some sleeping pills cause I can't sleep


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#7 2007-07-03 01:42:43

Pyroflame
Forum User
From: The Netherlands/Azeroth
Registered: 2006-04-28
Posts: 141

Re: Druids - my, their and your thoughts.

a very very good post mojo, and i have thought about 'being a druid' as well the last few days...
and here is my point of view:

as me being resto almost from lvl 50 till now i can only say: we have a hard time solo,
but after tonight i rly got the idea that it is hard for resto druid to go instances aswell...
after trying to find a party for ALL heroics for 2 hours i realised something;
healing tree are the last healer ppl want for their party, druids cant shield/heal or ress like a holy pala/priest,
we are like the trash from the streets, none wants us to be around...
i get the idea most ppl dont understand the ways of the healing tree, ppl want imba heals and shields, not a HoT that keep them above 80% of hp...
and about PvP, being resto is like being suicidal, you are only phostphoning your death...

srry for this 'emo' post but this is whats on my mind about resto druids, i wont say things about the feral and balance druids because i havent been them long enough to form a good oppinion..

seriously think about a respecc.. have my gear rdy in no time, but i want to be 'that healer' on the raids...

Last edited by Pyroflame (2007-07-03 01:43:59)


There is no Good nor Bad, only the decisions you face and the consequences of it...

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#8 2007-07-03 02:36:19

Pustbunker
Guild Member
From: Best, Holland
Registered: 2005-11-19
Posts: 983

Re: Druids - my, their and your thoughts.

people would rather have a feral tank than a resto tree, agreed.. Ive been spammed alot with messages that just contain FERAL?!


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#9 2007-07-03 04:08:54

Mojorising
Officer
From: Odense (Bolbro), Denmark
Registered: 2005-09-07
Posts: 3845
Website

Re: Druids - my, their and your thoughts.

Well. I agree that resto druids are lacking alot. We need a ooc ress, to be really useful in instances. Bringing a resto druid or a holy pala to a 5 man party, im sure that 80 - 90% of the times the choice would be the pala because of the "normal" heals + the ability to ress all members. less corpse running, meens less time spend in the instance.

On the other hand i think that resto druids are a very nice asset in raids. Here they have a chance to do healing like they are supposed to. Support healing. And i dont meen that in a bad way, but in a good way.
The hoTs players recive from restos are awsome. It might not be enough to singleheal a tank through a whole fight, but it gives priests, palas and shamans the time to cast their heals, with out worrying to much.

Have you ever wondered why we mostly have instant heals and some that heals a sertain amount in the start (regrowth) or in the end (lifebloom) ? For me it shows that druids are those who should support heal the entire raid, and let the pala, priest, shaman be the main healers of some specific targets.

In my experience as a tank in 5 man instances, i feel that with a single healer (if its not a druid) my heals come very spiky. That sometimes result in me worrying about their job, instead of my own. It can be stressful. I dont get this in raids. I simply love to see the rejuv and lifebloom spam from you resto's between those 4k heals the "primary" healers get of.
Dont give up hope for restoration pyro. I would hate to have a raid with out resto druids. You are simply to valueable for keeping tanks sane wink
I agree that it sucks not to get into any groups, but i can asure you, that alot of others have it the same way. You try beeing a fury warrior and get turned down every time you try to get into a group, since you dont feel you can tank, and the group dont want another "useless" melee. - It is all part of bad design by blizzard that we all just learned to live with. Have you seen the response on the EU druid forum for the post: give druids an OOC combat ress. Clearly the Blue with the response he deliveres, have no idea why we want it. People like that simply piss me off.

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#10 2007-07-03 17:57:50

Talmira
Guild Member
Registered: 2005-08-14
Posts: 1405

Re: Druids - my, their and your thoughts.

Nice post mojo, don't really have any other comments right now all that text just needs to sink in smile

And as far as not getting 5-man groups as a certain spec (not just druids), sadly some still live in a pre-TBC world or have very little knowledge of other classes then their own.

Do you have a link to that OOC combat ress thread, can't seems to find it?


"The wise question himself. The fool, the others."
"Those who fail to plan - Plan to fail"

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#11 2007-07-03 18:27:59

Mojorising
Officer
From: Odense (Bolbro), Denmark
Registered: 2005-09-07
Posts: 3845
Website

Re: Druids - my, their and your thoughts.

this post:
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.htm … p;sid=1#16

If Druids had the same abilities as other healing classes, then why choose to play with those classes at all?

It is so stupid of him to put it this way. We choose druids, because we like the versality of the class. Both the 2 other hybrid classes have ress. We can ress 1 person every 30 min. Its just not good enough if you have a bad day in some heroic at the last boss, and the party needs to run back x 10. - i dont see that we should give up rebirth, because it is really nice in raids, but give us a ress besides that. I cant see how it makes us more OP or anything. i simply cant..

the druid comes with an suggestion. i dont say im in for the idea, but the idea that we should have a ress, to make us more valuable in 5 man's i really want to see implanted. smile

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#12 2007-07-03 18:31:14

Tanduli
Druid CL / Forum Guru
From: Norway
Registered: 2007-05-12
Posts: 1125

Re: Druids - my, their and your thoughts.

mojorising wrote:

Well. I agree that resto druids are lacking alot....
...

I dont agree to any of the issues you are mentioning, I have healed alone in almost all of the heroics, the only part I find hard is aggro management. I dont have fade, and I dont have divine shield. thats the ONLY 2 parts about druid healing I dislike. I stay in tree, use regrowth, rejuvenation, lifebloom and swiftmend. If I see the tank spikes I go out of tree form and do an instant HT. if the damage continues coming very high I stay out and keep using HT on the tank. Usually this is not the case, so I go back into tree form. this leaves me with only aggro management, and its not a big issue either considering I have 5 point subtlety. the only time this is an issue is when the tank spikes a lot right after the pull before he have gained a lot of aggro.

edit: I agree resto druids should have ooc res

Last edited by Tanduli (2007-07-03 18:33:42)

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#13 2007-07-03 18:38:27

Mojorising
Officer
From: Odense (Bolbro), Denmark
Registered: 2005-09-07
Posts: 3845
Website

Re: Druids - my, their and your thoughts.

im saying that with druid healing it is less spiky, not more smile

I agree that resto druids need some kind of fade ability, but i guess thats why we wear leather tongue - Shield, well i dont really know. I dont feel its part of what we are. On the other hand, imagine if barskin was castable on others, now there's a "shield" - should be 2 min CD as it used to be, to make it less OP.

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#14 2007-07-03 20:29:42

Pyroflame
Forum User
From: The Netherlands/Azeroth
Registered: 2006-04-28
Posts: 141

Re: Druids - my, their and your thoughts.

i have the feeling that they boost oomkin - 400% armor and bear 400% armor.. why not tree 400% armor?!
make us more capeable of surviving when CC or agroo is not managed...


There is no Good nor Bad, only the decisions you face and the consequences of it...

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#15 2007-07-03 20:47:30

Mojorising
Officer
From: Odense (Bolbro), Denmark
Registered: 2005-09-07
Posts: 3845
Website

Re: Druids - my, their and your thoughts.

i think they buffed moonkin armor, to make it more intresting for balance druids to wear leather items. Also to buff the survivability in PvP, since moonkins dont have shield/frostnova too keep melees of them

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#16 2007-07-03 21:51:48

Tanduli
Druid CL / Forum Guru
From: Norway
Registered: 2007-05-12
Posts: 1125

Re: Druids - my, their and your thoughts.

the reason tree dont have any + armor is the fact that we would have been immortal vs melee. and our survivability in pvp is already very good, we got travel form. its the fastest movement in combat in the game. combine this with instant: Lifebloom, rejuvenation natures swiftness and swiftmend and you wont die fast.

but I agree 400% tree would be nice in pve, still, way too good in pvp

Last edited by Tanduli (2007-07-03 21:53:50)

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