The Enigma Order

Mojorising · 2008-12-12 13:30:25

With all the changes that comes with the next patch, i was thinking of what pvp specs could be viable.
The ideas arent aimed for just one thing like optimal arena pvp spec or anything, but rather an overall pvp spec that could be fun to try and pull off.

The stuff that made me think this was viable was basicly:

Primal Tenacity - will in addition to the tooltip reduce the cost of Bear Form, Cat Form, and Dire Bear Form by 17/33/50%
combined with
Natural Shapeshifter
This will give a total of 80% mana reduction on forms, which is really awsome from a feral perspective.

This made me think back to vanilla wow, when druids did alot more shapeshifting than we do now, and the hybrid specs where a viable option.
And what was it, that made the feral "hybrid" spec viable back in the days? Our last talent wasnt mangle, but leader of the pack. When mangle came, it outshined everything else, making it one of the most powerful talents in the feral tree.
With mangle we didnt really have any reason to go to far up the resto tree anymore, since we couldnt get either Omen of clarity or Natures swiftness.
With burning crusade we had the points to get Omen of clarity, but everything after that was mostly a waste.

I really loved beeing a hybrid back in the days, and i thought it could be fun to try and get back to the "roots" (got it? ) of the old playstyle.

So... the oppotunity actually came with the new reduced mana costs on forms, making shapeshifting more viable. Not only that, but there is alot more nice talents in the resto tree, so spending 21 points in resto suddenly seems much more attractive.

Here is the basic idea:
Hybrid spec (with 3 spare points)

Forms are cheap. Stacking agi will benefit survivability alot with talents like Nurturing Instinct combined with an instant heal.
Savage roar will stay up, even though you shift out of cat, so nomore wasted points from there.
The spec focus more on survivability than top dps, but the part i linked can be tuned more toward either one with spending the 3 remaining points in protector of the pack / Predatory instincts or king of the jungle.

Shred and Ferocious bite aint as important pvp wise as pve, which frees up atleast 12 points (5 points from feral agression, 2 points from shredding attacks and 5 from rend and tear)
The finishers here will now be maim, rip and savage roar.
The dps will come from mangle + bleeds, which not only ignore armor, but also serves a hybrid spec really well, because of all the shapeshifting you now free up. You have the ability to move more freely, running, rooting etc, while still have bleeds like pounce, rip and rake up, which deals alot of dmg, especially combined with Savage roar and mangle.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0ZxMGscbdbeRIczhZ0Ecubk
This could be a nice suggestion to a bear pvp spec.
Basicly, my thoughts here would be to use catforms when you go offensive, and use bear for defensive. Once they start to break down the defense, you instant heal and start with cat again.
Maybe this wouldnt work, but in theory it sounds fun and old school

Anyone else done some thoughts about this?

Edit: there is no where where i can find info about how they will scale protector of the pack, only that you dont need team members to get the effect anymore.
So if its just 1 or 2 points, there will be 1 more "free" talent to use elsewhere

Tanduli · 2008-12-12 13:54:51

I will try a different way. In the beginning, people are lacking resilience, making spikes an important part of any build. Berserk is just too good to not pick, the fear immunity is worth it alone. I am probably going to pick Nurturing Instinct at some point, but I would like all my team members to have 600+ resilience before I pick that one. In the build I made, Improved Mangle is the only spell I really want, but I couldn’t find points for it. With this build I will get a close to 100% chance of getting a critical strike with FB.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0ZeMMsfrd0eRhcuVo0Eczb

regarding bear and pvp, I think its more of a "deff" stance you go into when you are in trouble. your damage can be outhealed by hots so you want to get back to cat when you can.

Talmira · 2008-12-13 11:20:35

Mojorising wrote:
This made me think back to vanilla wow, when druids did alot more shapeshifting than we do now, and the hybrid specs where a viable option.
And what was it, that made the feral "hybrid" spec viable back in the days? Our last talent wasnt mangle, but leader of the pack. When mangle came, it outshined everything else, making it one of the most powerful talents in the feral tree.
With mangle we didnt really have any reason to go to far up the resto tree anymore, since we couldnt get either Omen of clarity or Natures swiftness.
With burning crusade we had the points to get Omen of clarity, but everything after that was mostly a waste.

Maybe im getting old, but im pretty sure that leader of the pack was introduced in BC and not in vanilla

Some interesting talents build to try out, but agree with Tanduli that Beserk is too good not to pick.

Last edited by Talmira (2008-12-13 11:20:47)

xzar · 2008-12-13 14:00:21

One of our biggest problems as ferals before wotlk was the lack of proper burst damage. You've given up alot of that burst damage by not taking King of the Jungle, Rend and Tear, Primal Precision and especially Berserk.

I think you'll end up playing too defensively to be a serious threat to the other team if you play with that spec.

I would go for this PVP spec:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0ZxMGscrdbeRhfuAooy0z

The idea is maximum burst in cat and maximum survivability in cat. The fifth point in Furor only gives you 5 energy because of global cooldown, so I'd move one point into Imp. MotW for arena.

Last edited by xzar (2008-12-13 14:11:07)

Mojorising · 2008-12-14 02:22:17

Talmira wrote:
Mojorising wrote:
This made me think back to vanilla wow, when druids did alot more shapeshifting than we do now, and the hybrid specs where a viable option.
And what was it, that made the feral "hybrid" spec viable back in the days? Our last talent wasnt mangle, but leader of the pack. When mangle came, it outshined everything else, making it one of the most powerful talents in the feral tree.
With mangle we didnt really have any reason to go to far up the resto tree anymore, since we couldnt get either Omen of clarity or Natures swiftness.
With burning crusade we had the points to get Omen of clarity, but everything after that was mostly a waste.
Maybe im getting old, but im pretty sure that leader of the pack was introduced in BC and not in vanilla

Some interesting talents build to try out, but agree with Tanduli that Beserk is too good not to pick.

Leader of the pack came with the "feral" rewamp. Even mangle came before BC
And yes, i too would pick berserk too in a pvp feral spec, but the spec i mention is basicly about that instant heal and aiming at the hybrid role, so therefor berserk doesnt need to be a part of it

@Xzar:
Im not talking about burst. Im trying to figure out a viable spec that brings the old playstyle back, but it should still be competitive.
Those specs didnt aim for bursts, but outlasting your opponent. i even open op the post herer by saying "The ideas arent aimed for just one thing like optimal arena pvp spec or anything, but rather an overall pvp spec that could be fun to try and pull off". you still respond to it like its an arena spec.
I also mention that i took 3 "free" points snd put them in protector of the pack. if i needed burst, i would place them in king of the jungle obviously

For those of you who didnt play a druid back in early vanilla, i dont think you can understand where i am aiming with this spec

xzar · 2008-12-14 03:17:27

I just don't agree with some of the things you wrote in the OP. You did say that you were focusing on a hybrid pvp spec, but you also made some generalizations about feral pvp. Such as "Shred and Ferocious bite aint as important pvp wise as pve". This was mainly what I disagreed with

I would love to be proven wrong, because I would also like to have a viable feral/healing spec, but when looking at the talents you suggest I see:
- a defensive bear against melee physical damage
- an instant heal every 3 minutes for about 5000 in feral gear (?)
- a cat form with no real burst damage and weak bearform damage

I think you'll be able to put up a fight against rogues and warriors but you won't be able to deal much damage to them because you'll be forced to stay in bearform, so it'll be a close fight that can go either way. I think you'll be owned by any spellcaster because you won't pose much threat to them damage wise and their damage will go right through your bear armor. I think you'll be outlasted by any other hybrid class with healing capability, because they'll be able to deal more damage and heal just as well as you (if not better).

This is based on bitter experience from TBC and feral pvp in late vanilla wow.

Go check it in the next arena season and hopefully prove me wrong, then I'll come back and steal your spec

Last edited by xzar (2008-12-14 04:09:46)

Mojorising · 2008-12-14 13:46:18

shred is hard to pull off in pvp, other than the initial burst, or if its lucky timed with a stun.
10 talents is needed to make FB a real killer, but it will be runed with resilience anyways, so there are better points to spend them on with a hybrid build.
Your bleeds are still the same, so you loose some burst, but you will still have the strength of mangle as we always had it.
Bearform dmg is far from weak, and you arent forced to stay in bearform just because you dont use shred or berserk.

and again.. its not ment as a burst arena spec. Its ment as a new approach to fighting as a feral.

xzar · 2008-12-14 15:21:30

Time will tell, I guess. I hope you'll post a couple of vids using this technique

Talmira · 2008-12-14 15:52:43

Mojorising wrote:
Talmira wrote:
Mojorising wrote:
This made me think back to vanilla wow, when druids did alot more shapeshifting than we do now, and the hybrid specs where a viable option.
And what was it, that made the feral "hybrid" spec viable back in the days? Our last talent wasnt mangle, but leader of the pack. When mangle came, it outshined everything else, making it one of the most powerful talents in the feral tree.
With mangle we didnt really have any reason to go to far up the resto tree anymore, since we couldnt get either Omen of clarity or Natures swiftness.
With burning crusade we had the points to get Omen of clarity, but everything after that was mostly a waste.
Maybe im getting old, but im pretty sure that leader of the pack was introduced in BC and not in vanilla

Some interesting talents build to try out, but agree with Tanduli that Beserk is too good not to pick.
Leader of the pack came with the "feral" rewamp. Even mangle came before BC

Yes but i dont classify the 2.x patch that came out before BC as vanilla wow

Mojorising wrote:
For those of you who didnt play a druid back in early vanilla, i dont think you can understand where i am aiming with this spec

I understand what your aiming at, but lots of things have changed since the good old days. Our gear was much more hybrid back then, these days even with the upcomming changes we still have to give alot more thought about how we use the limited mana we have.

But then again as long as its fun, then thats what count

Mojorising · 2008-12-14 18:26:12

xzar wrote:
Time will tell, I guess. I hope you'll post a couple of vids using this technique

Doubt ill actually try it out on live
Its just ideas who "could" work in theory. Perhaps ill try it out on ptr, just for the laughs

Talmira wrote:
I understand what your aiming at, but lots of things have changed since the good old days. Our gear was much more hybrid back then, these days even with the upcomming changes we still have to give alot more thought about how we use the limited mana we have.

But then again as long as its fun, then thats what count

yup, thats deffently the issue now. No more hybrid gear makes it close to impossible to pull off ingame, but on the paper it works.
Its not like im trying to make a crusade to get the hybrid spec viable over pure feral specs, its just playing around with talents and trying new things

Mojorising · 2008-12-19 14:39:05

Does anyone know if Genesis works with pounce, rip and rake? or leader of the pack healing for that matter

Enimusha · 2008-12-19 16:04:02

Should work with physical periodic damage too, but LoTP healing is not periodic, so doesn't work with that.

The Enigma Order

Announcement

#1 2008-12-12 13:30:25

PvP specs beyond 3.0.X

#2 2008-12-12 13:54:51

Re: PvP specs beyond 3.0.X

#3 2008-12-13 11:20:35

Re: PvP specs beyond 3.0.X

Mojorising wrote:

#4 2008-12-13 14:00:21

Re: PvP specs beyond 3.0.X

#5 2008-12-14 02:22:17

Re: PvP specs beyond 3.0.X

Talmira wrote:

Mojorising wrote:

#6 2008-12-14 03:17:27

Re: PvP specs beyond 3.0.X

#7 2008-12-14 13:46:18

Re: PvP specs beyond 3.0.X

#8 2008-12-14 15:21:30

Re: PvP specs beyond 3.0.X

#9 2008-12-14 15:52:43

Re: PvP specs beyond 3.0.X

Mojorising wrote:

Talmira wrote:

Mojorising wrote:

Mojorising wrote:

#10 2008-12-14 18:26:12

Re: PvP specs beyond 3.0.X

xzar wrote:

Talmira wrote:

#11 2008-12-19 14:39:05

Re: PvP specs beyond 3.0.X

#12 2008-12-19 16:04:02

Re: PvP specs beyond 3.0.X

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