The Enigma Order

I might change my mind after thinking about it for a while, but at a first glance that fact that heroic modes won't be available for, what - 3 months since 3.3 ("few weeks" x4) does not sound fun. Unless they make normal mode challenging.

Gives us enough time to beat Anub'Arak heroic though

Last edited by Lamme (2009-11-19 10:30:37)

First of all I'll list my dislikes about this setup;

- Having to wait "several weeks" for normal mode bosses first
- Having to wait months before being able to do hardmodes, the reason for real progressive raiding
- Very limited amount of tries for normal and hardmodes combined (for the last 4 bosses)
- Dimishing returns after everything has been unlocked

Having to wait "several weeks" for normal mode bosses first
Several weeks for 4 normal mode bosses. Why oh why? I would be surprised if normal modes were really challenging because that would not be in line with the catering to pugs/casuals in this expansion.

Having to wait months before being able to do hardmodes, the reason for real progressive raiding
Much like the above.

Very limited amount of tries for normal and hardmodes combined (for the last 4 bosses)
This is going to be fun with dc's, mistakes, new players and lag. Sure it's only the last 4 bosses, but still.

Dimishing returns after everything has been unlocked
Yes, everything becoming easier after some time, including hardmodes. You can ignore the buff, but it makes no sense. It's like taking off gear while doing the same encounter with the same rewards.
It's also unfair that people playing on a casual level can complete the same encounters if they wait long enough. After all there's normal modes for them, but ofcourse they also want to do hardmodes because they pay for it!

We believe a staggered release of the content will allow players to experience Icecrown Citadel at a sustainable, measured, and ultimately more enjoyable pace.

And what is this about really? Let people raid content how they want it. They are acting like the playerbase has an IQ of below their shoesize and can't think for themselves.

Good excuse for artificially extending their content with lame limited amount of tries which is TOO few for hardmodes for sure. Imagine how this is going to be when people dc and there is huge server lag or people make stupid mistakes (which all happens).

"Sorry people I dc'd/failed and this was the 5th try, cya next reset".

Imo this setup with limited tries and gating completely destroyes the idea of free raiding it once was.

Edit: Gating isn't even that bad (even though it takes friggin long to unlock everything), but the limited amount of tries are just plain bad. No one wants this, not the casual player and also not the more hardcore-minded player.

That and the fact that everything because easier at some point for both modes. Why can't they just leave things as they are/were at release? It already gets easier from time to time because of gear upgrades anyway so I don't see the point tbh.

Last edited by Fairmont (2009-11-19 12:47:13)

I'm pretty bad at explaining myself so I'll just quote some stuff I agree with. Especially the bolded parts.

It is the journey that makes a boss or instance special, not artifical bumps in the road, they are just annoying.

I think this pretty much hits the nail on the head. The journey aspect has been completely ruined. Maybe ICC will be a great instance but these artificial blocks are only going to cause frustration among raiders. It's not nice to be told off by your raid leader or made to feel bad because you're the one who made a personal mistake on a TotGC fight and cost the raid 1 attempt and possibly extra loot. If we wipe on Northrend Beasts, it should not result in shouting, blame gaming and insults (not saying my guild does this but sometimes tempers can flare up because of the increased tension caused by the limited attempts). It should just be something to laugh about before we dust ourselves off and try again.

I can only see this being a thousand times worse in Icecrown. With only 5 attempts per boss if you spread the 15 attempts out evenly, anybody who makes a personal mistake or gets disconnected or who has a sudden bout of lag is going to feel really horrible about the fact that they've possibly denied their guild an extra attempt or loot or a new boss kill, which is utterly ridiculous. So not only do we get to raid a lot less, we get to raid whilst feeling under intense amounts of pressure and stress. I don't see anything fun about that whatsoever. I've never been one to read heavily on tactics or study kill movies - yes, I do prepare myself for boss encounters, but a big part of it for me is getting a feel for the fight and intuitively learning my own way around it.

Casual raiders will benefit even less from this system, and casual raiders make up an overwhelming majority of the raiding community. Hardcore raiders are rarer, but they're hardcore raiders for a damn good reason, the reason being the sentence I've quoted. They enjoy the journey and the experience of working out their own tactics and trying different methods for downing new bosses. So casual raiders will effectively be alienated by the game, hardcore raiders will be frustrated and feel insulted. Who benefits from it?

The only people supporting this system are the ones who get some sort of a kick out of seeing the hardcore guilds complain, either because they're not good enough to be in one of those guilds or because they have time constraints, which doesn't justify these limited attempts for the many people who can make the time for raiding.

Blizzard, what was wrong with the way raids were designed in TBC? Or the way Ulduar was designed? Why combine the most hated mechanics into one huge abomination for a dungeon that people have been anticipating for months? It just doesn't make any sense to me, my mind is reeling and it won't stop for a good while.

And here I was, prepared for more awesomeness the likes of Ulduar + separate hardmodes. Artificial blocking people out of content in all the possible ways so far, resulting in more time spent clearing the thing, and more subscription money for them. At least there's no extra loot for clearing without failing or disconnecting, but it's still cutting off the fun where it shouldn't be needed to be cut. I don't like it.

The sad thing is, if people weren't so eager to actually get the stupid lich king down, I could see many people ending their subscription right here. Ingenious to make it last longer from their part, really.

You've gotta be kidding me? If that was real, it would be end of my warcraft career for sure.

Enimusha wrote:

You've gotta be kidding me? If that was real, it would be end of my warcraft career for sure.

http://encyclopediadramatica.com/This_Looks_Shopped

Fairmont wrote:

Nevertheless that picture makes a good point.

It's such an obvious shoop from the pandaren monk purchase site.

Lamme wrote:

ToC hc sounded really akward/stupid with limited amount of attempts, but practically this was an issue for us pretty much never (actually made our first kill of Faction Champions more thrilling, as it was last attempt we had).

Well the difference between ToC and ICC with this current setup is huge. Exactly 45 tries actually. I wouldn't simply overlook this.

The pressure montioned in Fairmont's post works both ways though - makes it hard for the players, but for Blizzard as well in a way - they need to come up with non-face rolling, non-random based based, challenging fights. At least in theory.

They can tune fights really well if we look at previous bosses throughout this game. Thing is, if they go on with these limited attempts they will not make those bosses that hard probably, because then it would take around 10-15 resets for 1 boss to kill which isn't going to work ofcourse. Same goes for normal mode except it will be even easier. This is really obvious because at the end they want everyone to be able to experience the content.

And the fact that the servers are everything but STABLE nowadays along with personal mistakes people make, the 5-tries per reset will be frustrating for absolutely everyone. Since modes are combined you would have 4 tries for hardmode and 1 try to do the normal mode (and hope you won't have lag, etc.) so you can at least continue with the other normal modes. This sure sounds retarded to me.

No one will favour this system, except people that have over 9000 lvl 80 alts perhaps. To be honest I think this shows lack of respect to the raiding customer. Alot of people play this game only to raid and then they take away the freedom to do that. And going back to ToC is the last thing people want.

Last but not least you will see everything nerfed more and more as everything unlocks, fun fun fun!

It's just very lame if you ask me.

Last edited by Fairmont (2009-11-20 13:09:59)

The bonus is that once you have killed the first boss that you need attempts for and they release the next boss you need attempts for, then you should basically have 10 for that boss, and 15 for the third and fourth, seeing as sindragosa and LK are released at the same time.

It's quite clear that this is artificially extending the duration of the content, no one is disputing that. The question is how serious it is and how it will influence us. Don't take the sorrows prematurly.

I too, think that this will block us at some point, but not that much more than we currently see in Trial of the Crusader. We had to wait 1 month for heroic ToC. Annoying at the time, but quickly forgotten.

Mox wrote:

It's quite clear that this is artificially extending the duration of the content, no one is disputing that. The question is how serious it is and how it will influence us. Don't take the sorrows prematurly.

I too, think that this will block us at some point, but not that much more than we currently see in Trial of the Crusader. We had to wait 1 month for heroic ToC. Annoying at the time, but quickly forgotten.

By the looks of it it will block us far more than ToC HC. First of all it will take "several weeks" for one wing to unlock. After all the wings are unlocked AND we cleared normal mode, then we can start with the hardmode versions. It takes months, but this isn't THAT bad to be honest, although I rather see content 100% finished and not gated. I don't care the 100 top guilds will piss on normal modes and Blizzard should not care about this either. But they do it seems, because else we would not be facing this probably.

Anyway, what WILL certainly block us is the limited attempts. Just think about it. I assume the hardmode versions are going to be relatively harder than the ToC ones which aren't that hard (save Anub). Every reset we get 5 tries for the first (of the last 4) hardmode boss. How many resets do we need to get it done, assuming it's relatively harder than let's say Northrend Beasts? How many wipes did we have on beasts even after farming it every week? Getting my point?

I'm pretty sure this will become very frustrating, especially because of dc's, server lag and personal mistakes. No matter how friendly your raiding guild is, people will look at you and have you responsible for the failed try if you dc or fail, causing a wipe and a costly try. It puts a huge amount of pressure on everyone, be it casuals or hardcore raiders or everything in between.

This is what I'm afraid about.

Edit: Lamme beat me to it with the NRB example

Last edited by Fairmont (2009-11-20 13:58:52)