The Enigma Order

Tyler · 2010-10-16 01:43:26

I managed to pull 12k in ToC 25 tonight.. getting closer but still feels crappy. I had to hold back though. Apoc and I kept dying from threat, so watch it guys

Tyler · 2010-10-18 14:10:47

I think it's safe to say that fury is back on track, while arms is falling greatly behind again.
This will even out when we start lvling though. there has been a lot of testing at the beta servers, and arms seems to getting better and better for each lvl. Still behind fury though.

New update from live testing. It seems that the expertise cap as been reduced, on the live servers. Eventhough it doesn't say so in the blizz panel.
The melee expertise cap is now 172 expertise raiting, or 22 expertise. This means that we can reforge even more stats into dps.

New testing with prot stats shows that mastery is in favor over parry and dodge, and it even shows that it scales your Enraged Regeneration
Enraged Regeneration heals for 46% of total health with 9.07 mastery and for 53% of total HP with 15.32 mastery.

I haven't found anything about mastery being useful for dps yet, but something tells me that it will be soon.
More and more classes finds them self using it, after quite a few hot fixes.

more to come when I find something :p

Baqa · 2010-10-18 16:43:17

great news!

Arms is horrible atm, and I can't really explain why.

Murith · 2010-10-18 17:09:12

That's nice to hear about exp changes, so i'll try to reforge exp into mastery and see how it works. I'd like to add that Independing Victory talent ( dunno how to link it in here ) is really usefull on Sindra hc ^^
And ye rage seems really RNG, some times without any parry/dodge i can hold aggro, another time i can't : /

Tyler · 2010-10-19 15:22:21

New update.
I previously stated that Enraged Regeneration scales with mastery. This seems to be a bug in the toolips. After a few tests, it actually shows that it's bugged and heals for less than it should.

Test #1
HP: 56,266
Mastery: 15.32
Enraged Regeneration tooltip percentage: 53%
Expected heal: 29,821 over 10 seconds => 9 ticks of 2982 + 1 tick of 2983
Real heal: 21,472 over 10 seconds => 8 ticks of 2147 + 2 ticks of 2148
Real percentage: 38%

Test #2
HP: 42,766
Mastery: 9.07
Enraged Regeneration tooltip percentage: 46%
Espected heal: 19,672 over 10 seconds => 8 ticks of 1967 + 2 ticks of 1968
Real heal: 16,320 over 10 seconds => 10 ticks of 1632
Real percentage: 38%

Conclusion: Not only does Enraged Regeneration NOT scale with mastery, it seems to be healing for too little considering the base heal percentage is 35% and Field Dressing is supposed to increase that amount by 20% (up to 42%)

Tyler · 2010-10-19 15:35:40

New update on fury DPS.

It seems that with the slam proc being bugged and still costs rage, using it on procs is actually a dps loss.
Right now the rotation should look like this. (quite boring) BT -> RB -> BT with HS spamming.

Haste also shows to be more powerful than crit after 35% crit on dummies, but there are some concerns that to much haste and to little crit will reduce your flurry up time to around 85%, since your white hits will consume your flurry stacks. This i'm actually not concerned about in a raid.

I'm saving up some honor points atm, so I can buy some one hand weaps, so we can test singleminded fury. Should be fun to see how they perform. Gonna start out by testing the wrathful fist weapons, just need to get a bit more honor points, cause I had to use some for the plate bracers. This i'm actually looking forward to, though it might not be usefull before they fix the slam proc bug, as it's a much higher priotorized skill, since it hits with both weaps.

Over and out.

Warsaw · 2010-10-19 15:48:48

Tyler wrote:
It seems that with the slam proc being bugged and still costs rage, using it on procs is actually a dps loss.

Interesting

Tyler wrote:
Right now the rotation should look like this. (quite boring) BT -> RB -> BT with HS spamming.

It is rotation for single target ofc?
In hc im using BT>WW>RB>Cleve.

Cleve works good with WW -> Meat Clever.

Im kind off hapy with changes. doing 6,5k DMG on hc dummie. That is about 100% more than pre patch, with only slightly better gear.

New battle shout is imba - rage part makes you always keep it on the group (glyph isnt nececery needed anymore, since you will use it over and over).

Rude interruption will make warriors focus on propper interrupting as often as possible. etc

Cant wait to go icc.

Tyler · 2010-10-19 16:16:04

Warsaw wrote:
Tyler wrote:
It seems that with the slam proc being bugged and still costs rage, using it on procs is actually a dps loss.
Interesting

Tyler wrote:
Right now the rotation should look like this. (quite boring) BT -> RB -> BT with HS spamming.
It is rotation for single target ofc?
In hc im using BT>WW>RB>Cleve.

Cleve works good with WW -> Meat Clever.

Using cleave and WW on a single target is not worth it, compared to HS with incite.
HS crits for 30-34k in ICC, where cleave with meat cleaver wont get above 10k, same with WW, plus you get rage starved way to easy by doing that.
HS is that hardest hitting skill we have, besides execute which can hit insanely high. One just posted a 97k execute crit on blood queen with bite buff ofc.

So below 20% spam execute as much as posible, with HS if you get to much rage.

Tyler · 2010-10-22 12:17:46

new update on fury, regarding haste and rotations.

There are a lot of napkin math going on right now to figure out how much haste you should have to maintain the best rotation.

right now it seems that the most effective rotation is:

0>>>>>>>>1.5>>>>>>>>>3>>>>>>>>> 4.5>>>>>>>>6
BT>>>>>>>RB>>>>>>>>>BT>>>>>>>> X>>>>>>>>>Repeat
>>>>>>HS>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>HS

where X is used for shouts/zerker rage, and CD's.

To get this rotation going for 1 min, would require 30.5% haste, giving you have a 100% uptime on flurry and enrage, which is most likely not the case if you have that much haste.
So to be realistic, your flurry time is most likely up 88% of the time, which increases the requirement quite a bit. to be more exact 38.7%.

more info inc. when they have done some more math. these numbers is ofc not 100% sure.

Baqa · 2010-10-29 15:42:57

Quite interesting.

Haste
While the affect of haste in rage regen is very positive, my own setup steers clear of it completely. People in above have come to the conclusion that at ~40% haste from gear (together with 10% raid buff and 25% flurry proc), rage usage is essentially optimized. There's enough rage to hit every meaningful attack, but at the same time any extra bit of rage gen (from extra haste) would not increase any yellow attacks. And mindful white hits only account for 30% of total damage. (My own calculations support the 40% haste cap finding)

Obvious problem is bloodlust, DBW haste proc, and even when there's mob aoe damage increasing our rage gen. When our rage is capped, all the extra points in haste are only getting 30% effectiveness (increasing white hits only). I am quite concerned how much haste is being put on the cata plate gear at the moment, which I believe is significantly worst for warriors than for rogues.

Personally I would recommend only 10% haste from gear and put all customizable stat points elsewhere.

Mastery
This stat does double dip for raging blow, and thus creates a minor exponential effect, so the benefit deminishes slower. My calculations show crit > mastery until crit > 61%. Below are my calculations for dps increase from mastery:

Mastery = 25% - 1pt addn Mastery increases DPS by 0.62%
Mastery = 50% - 1pt addn Mastery increases DPS by 0.57%
Mastery = 75% - 1pt addn Mastery increases DPS by 0.53%
Mastery = 100% - 1pt addn Mastery increases DPS by 0.50%

Crit = 25% - 1% addn Crit increase DPS by 0.80% (1/1.25)
Crit = 50% - 1% addn Crit increase DPS by 0.67%
Crit = 61% - 1% addn Crit increase DPS by 0.62%
Crit = 75% - 1% addn Crit increase DPS by 0.57%

Assume: Enrage is up 79%, death wish is up 21%, raging blow is 10% of damage with 0 mastery, each pt in mastery increases enrage effects by 3.13%.

(1) DPS increase from Enrage = 3.13%*10%*79% / (1+ Mastery)
(2) DPS incresae from Death Wish = 3.13*20%*21% / (1+ Mastery)
(3) DPS increase from Raging Blow = 3.13*10%* (1+ Mastery) / (1 + Mastery)
(4) Total DPS increase = (1) + (2) + (3)
Note for Raging Blow: The double dip for raging blow is accounted for by enrage (1) and deathwish (2) increasing total damage (which includes raging blow already), and a further increase in the raging blow's 10% damage (3).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

frewts speical mention:
25% mastery=8 mastery (aka what you already got).

Last edited by Baqa (2010-10-29 16:03:44)

Baqa · 2010-10-29 16:02:27

For those wondering. 3/3 war academy, or 3/3 incite. Here is probably the clear answer:

TLDR: if your crit chance (not character sheet, but actual against 83 bosses) is lower than 47.18%, take 3/3 Incite. If it's higher, take 3/3 War Academy. Two important provisos are below.

I modeled 3/31/2 vs. 2/31/3.

On any given HS, one of three things can happen: a regular (i.e. earned) crit, an incite (i.e. freebie) crit, or a regular hit.

Let BC = baseline crit be your probability of critting the boss before the Incite bonus.
Let #I = # incite ranks be, well, guess.
Let Pr(x) be "probability of x happening on this HS"
Let Pr'(x) be "probability of x happening on the previous HS"

-----

First HS:

Pr(reg crit) = BC + 0.05 * #I
Pr(incite crit) = 0
Pr(hit) = 1 - Pr(reg crit)

-----

Subsequent HS's:

Pr(reg crit) = Pr(last attack wasn't a HS crit that proc'd Incite) * Pr(critting without the Incite buff)
= [ Pr'(hit) + Pr'(incite crit) + { Pr'(reg crit) * (1 - #I / 3) } ] * [ BC + 0.05 * #I ]

Pr(incite crit) = Pr'(reg crit) * ( #I / 3)

Pr(hit) = 1 - Pr(reg crit) - Pr(incite crit)

-----

Take a second to think intuitively about how your probability to crit changes from your first HS, to your second, to your third and beyond. Your first HS is the one least likely to crit, because you have a 0% chance of having the Incite buff up. Your second HS is the one most likely to crit, because you had a 0% chance of having the Incite buff up on the previous HS and thus a 0% chance of being ineligible to have Incite up for this HS. For the third HS and beyond, your probability of critting similarly oscillates up and down, but decays towards some center. (Again, think about it intuitively - your 100'th heroic strike should have the same crit chance as your 101'th.)

We can simulate it in Excel by just picking initial conditions, plugging the above formulas into three columns for "reg crit," "incite crit," and "hit," and autofilling multiple rows as our hit table asymptotically approaches some center. (The oscillations get smaller than 0.01% after about eight heroic strikes, in case you were wondering.) As an example, I have 32.19% crit (on my character sheet, not against level 83 bosses). 2/3 Incite boosts my long-run HS crit chance to 54.88%; 3/3 Incite boosts it to 64.12%.

-----

Now to answer the actual question: do I want 3/3 War Academy and 2/3 Incite, or 2/3 and 3/3 instead?

-I'm going to ignore War Academy's effect on Slam and Cleave. Correcting for this would favor War Academy.
-I'm going to ignore Incite's boost to Flurry uptime. Correcting for this would favor Incite.

Boosting War Academy from 2/3 to 3/3 is a pretty straightforward 1.15 / 1.10 - 1 = 4.5454...% damage increase for HS.

The effectiveness of boosting Incite from 2/3 to 3/3 depends on your base crit chance. (Intuitively, boosting crit chance from 20 to 25% is nice; boosting it from 60% to 65% is less nice, proportionally; boosting it from 100% to 105% is useless.) At SOME baseline crit chance, the Incite boost is an equivalent damage gain to the War Academy boost. To find that chance, we just use Excel to compute (1 + 3/3 Incite HS crit chance) / (1 + 2/3 Incite HS crit chance) and solve for the base crit chance at which the proportional gain is also 4.54%, the same as for War Academy 2/3 -> 3/3. That percentage turns out to be 47.18%.

Thus - qualifying our answer with the two provisos above re: stuff we're ignoring - if your actual crit chance (not character sheet crit chance, but actual crit chance against a level 83 boss before talents) is less than 47.18%, 3/3 Incite is the way to go. If it's higher, War Academy is the better option.

The Enigma Order

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#26 2010-10-16 01:43:26

Re: New talents, new stats, new everything. What will you chose!?

#27 2010-10-18 14:10:47

Re: New talents, new stats, new everything. What will you chose!?

#28 2010-10-18 16:43:17

Re: New talents, new stats, new everything. What will you chose!?

#29 2010-10-18 17:09:12

Re: New talents, new stats, new everything. What will you chose!?

#30 2010-10-19 15:22:21

Re: New talents, new stats, new everything. What will you chose!?

#31 2010-10-19 15:35:40

Re: New talents, new stats, new everything. What will you chose!?

#32 2010-10-19 15:48:48

Re: New talents, new stats, new everything. What will you chose!?

Tyler wrote:

Tyler wrote:

#33 2010-10-19 16:16:04

Re: New talents, new stats, new everything. What will you chose!?

Warsaw wrote:

Tyler wrote:

Tyler wrote:

#34 2010-10-22 12:17:46

Re: New talents, new stats, new everything. What will you chose!?

#35 2010-10-29 15:42:57

Re: New talents, new stats, new everything. What will you chose!?

#36 2010-10-29 16:02:27

Re: New talents, new stats, new everything. What will you chose!?

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