The Enigma Order

Lamme · 2011-01-21 15:37:02

Link to a post I just found. A bit long, but not excessively. Basically it comes from a player who is concerned about Cataclysm 5 man heroics being way too hard. Personally I don't agree, not one bit, I think they were fine right after reaching level 85 and are mostly a joke by now. Still I found the post interesting enough and there's even some remotely decent discussion - among the obviously quasi-interrligent, wannabe clever, ironic posts - further below.

Plus, I guess being part of TEO for a long while now, it's sort of easy to overlook that there's in fact a huge niche of people who didn't get the chance to learn stuff we did.

Kaini · 2011-01-21 15:52:47

I think that is the post that inspired Ghostcrawler's blogpost "Wow! Dungeons are hard!"

Mox · 2011-01-21 16:19:08

Normal 10 man raids in WOTLK wasn't hard, but I disagree that the current heroic 5 man dungeons are harder. I'm left to wonder where the author lost the curiosity and willingness to learn tactics.

Windir · 2011-01-21 17:13:45

It can be hard in PuGs, especially if they just dinged 85 and most of their gear is ilvl 316 greens, with a few exceptions of some epic pvp items (iivl 364) to boost their GS.

But as GC said: run a few normal dungeons first(gear up, learn basic tactics) before doing heroics. The LFG tool is very broken imo.

Dejavu · 2011-01-21 18:15:02

I could not agree more, I had a hard time at start healing when I first dinged heroic rdy, and it lasted for a long time, until I had the gear and the dps with cc and a good tank. But I can for sure see how healers with green and blue have a hard time to keep the group alive in pugs. Totally respect that post

Kwindu · 2011-01-21 20:34:31

Bring back wowlk!
/sarcasm, i like to use more then one ability, and in wowlk HEROICS the hardest was to stay awake. so heroic...

Last edited by Kwindu (2011-01-21 20:35:00)

Fairmont · 2011-01-22 13:59:32

Dejavu wrote:
I could not agree more, I had a hard time at start healing when I first dinged heroic rdy, and it lasted for a long time, until I had the gear and the dps with cc and a good tank. But I can for sure see how healers with green and blue have a hard time to keep the group alive in pugs. Totally respect that post

Sarcasm much?

Ihsahn wrote:
The LFG tool is very broken imo.

It's the other way around. LFG tool is working fine, the majority of teribads using it are not fine.
What a surprise! I assume one or two tiers later everything is back to faceroll again even with your standard WotLK pug.

And as for the OP in that post on the WoW forums, what a total douchebag. It's seriously sad how such people call themselves casual. They are not casual, they are just plain bad. They want everything on a silver platter handed to them, but that's nothing new.

I don't expect heroics to be a face-roll, and frankly for me they weren't a faceroll in Cata, but I think you've set the bar too high for people who are still trying to gear up.

This one I find funny. To gear up for heroics in the first place, it might be a splendid idea to do some normals first to get at least ilvl333 in every slot, fully enchanted and gemmed. But no, the WotlK mindset kicks in again and all those idiots think that you should be able to clear heroics when you hit the ilvl mark to get into them, with all kind of crap gear and mostly even unenchanted too. Because why should you enchant your gear or put any effort in it if you are going to replace it anyway in the future?!

Last edited by Fairmont (2011-01-22 14:17:02)

Grimbold · 2011-01-22 14:03:35

I really cant believe all the healer complaints.

What do they want? Wotlk back, where you casted 1 holy shock through an heroic and it was enough?

Meh meh heroics are hard.

I know this might by an idiot remark, but get a guild! I'd think most of this whining comes from ppl who constantly pug, an enviorment where ppl generaly dont respect how to do things, mainly when you've just entered heroics and no respects the need to CC, the dps to be carefull - who generally arent and blame it on the healer - the desire for a fast run when that isnt possible...

Then they say im wrong that wotlk produced a generation of slackers and arrogant idiots.

Kwindu · 2011-01-22 15:19:13

So Grimbold, Casuel players that want to meet new people is just doomed?

Fairmont · 2011-01-22 15:59:05

So you're saying casual players cant have a guild? And meeting people you can do in the pub, or in normal dungeons to talk about butterflies and stuff. Maybe an RP realm is nice for that too.

Grimbold · 2011-01-22 16:11:33

Kwindu wrote:
So Grimbold, Casuel players that want to meet new people is just doomed?

You can meet new ppl alright, just dont whine on the forums later how those new people ruined your game.

And who said anything about casual?

Dejavu · 2011-01-22 16:49:55

Fairmont wrote:
Dejavu wrote:
I could not agree more, I had a hard time at start healing when I first dinged heroic rdy, and it lasted for a long time, until I had the gear and the dps with cc and a good tank. But I can for sure see how healers with green and blue have a hard time to keep the group alive in pugs. Totally respect that post
Sarcasm much?

Ihsahn wrote:
The LFG tool is very broken imo.
It's the other way around. LFG tool is working fine, the majority of teribads using it are not fine.
What a surprise! I assume one or two tiers later everything is back to faceroll again even with your standard WotLK pug.

And as for the OP in that post on the WoW forums, what a total douchebag. It's seriously sad how such people call themselves casual. They are not casual, they are just plain bad. They want everything on a silver platter handed to them, but that's nothing new.

I don't expect heroics to be a face-roll, and frankly for me they weren't a faceroll in Cata, but I think you've set the bar too high for people who are still trying to gear up.
This one I find funny. To gear up for heroics in the first place, it might be a splendid idea to do some normals first to get at least ilvl333 in every slot, fully enchanted and gemmed. But no, the WotlK mindset kicks in again and all those idiots think that you should be able to clear heroics when you hit the ilvl mark to get into them, with all kind of crap gear and mostly even unenchanted too. Because why should you enchant your gear or put any effort in it if you are going to replace it anyway in the future?!

Nope, not rly, but guess ur a much more of a kickass player than I m

Last edited by Dejavu (2011-01-22 17:03:04)

Busm · 2011-01-22 16:57:08

Well, 5man HCs are in an odd place right now. They're frustatring to newly dinged/casual players because of difficulty. And frustrating to more seasoned players, because the shine/challange has worn of - now they're just something you have to put up with to get your daily points.

While WotLK 5mans may have been boring as hell. Atleast you could always count on getting your daily done in 15-20minutes - even with randoms. Currently you have to set aside an hour or so, just to do your daily, even with a guild group - just because of the randomness in dungeon lengths.

So as far as I'm concerned, they can go ahead and nerf them to ground - so the casuals can have their fun, and I can have my 15min daylies back

Last edited by Busm (2011-01-22 17:06:32)

Fairmont · 2011-01-22 18:18:48

Dejavu wrote:
Nope, not rly, but guess ur a much more of a kickass player than I m

I just meant to say that imo you can't really expect to clear heroics in "green and blue" gear as you point out, with dps not using cc (back then) and without a decent tank. Pugs are just very bad most of the time and I don't see why the difficulty needs to be adjusted just because alot of those people suck. If these players get to start raiding then they need some stepping stones first and I don't think Heroics should be faceroll at the start of an expansion exactly because of that reason.

I know it's frustrating if u can't do anything about it, but I think it's not a bad thing at all at the end. Also, you never had to use the LFG tool, it's just a choise you can make. Guilds are there for a reason and else you can still make your own group on the server like in TBC. And as I said one or two raiding tiers later it will be doable with your standard WotLK pug anyway.

Mox · 2011-01-22 18:33:33

Not knowing what to do is very very different from sucking imo. 80% of the players you think suck just doesn't know the fight. Tell them and you'll get through with few problems.

Grimbold · 2011-01-22 19:22:58

Mox wrote:
Not knowing what to do is very very different from sucking imo. 80% of the players you think suck just doesn't know the fight. Tell them and you'll get through with few problems.

Back in wotlk, most of those players refused advice. You can blame the faceroll instances for that.

Surprisingly, that mentality still persists.

And these heroics werent "hard". Hard is over used and overrated. People are faced with the slightest hint of challenge and label something as hard. You can also thank wotlk 5 mans for that.

True that they might become frustrating, but that isnt a reason to tone them down to beyond stupidity. Finishing Utgard pinnacle in 10 minutes without any challenge isnt fun (yes fun is relative). That is something i do not understand. People who play a game that isnt offering them any challenge. Overcoming a challenge is fun. Cata heroics are challenging thus fun. Hell i remember being very happy when i downed the Forgemaster boss in Grim batol.

That said, im strongly agaisnt lowering the difficulty of 5 mans.

Fairmont · 2011-01-22 20:03:29

Mox wrote:
Not knowing what to do is very very different from sucking imo. 80% of the players you think suck just doesn't know the fight. Tell them and you'll get through with few problems.

What holds them back to check what the fights are about then? If people don't want to find out it's safe to say many don't want to find out stuff about their class/spec either. I'm not the person without patience so it's no problem if people are new and ask what needs to be done and how stuff works. BUT many people just don't ask in the 1st place, expect to be carried, can't take criticism at all and don't want to listen to any advice either. That's the WotLK mentality as Grim pointed out. I know not all are like that but many are sadly.

Looking forward to it!

Dejavu · 2011-01-23 01:43:05

what is the age on the cover to buy this game again? 12years old?
I would love to see a 12 year old looking on youtube to see the fights and know every fight by heart.

It's like, this game is not ment for players only, with a mind of a Raider...

Last edited by Dejavu (2011-01-23 01:45:36)

Apox · 2011-01-23 02:34:29

Heroics were hard, no hiding that (particularly for healers).
It required failing and learning, which doesn't seem to be a popular thing with randoms. People needed to put an effort into getting through it with bad gear, to get rewarded better gear, which makes sense, but maybe not for blizzard?
It was far from impossible, even with terribad gear, but it was damn fun.

If they nerf heroics a little bit, then I can live with that, even though I don't like it., but if they nerf heroics back to wotlk levels, I'm gonna start PvP instead, even though I really really hate PvP, cause it would be more fun than easymode steamrolling 5mans. I've never been so bored in this game as doing 5mans for welfare epics in wotlk.

Fairmont · 2011-01-23 12:53:40

Dejavu wrote:
what is the age on the cover to buy this game again? 12years old?
I would love to see a 12 year old looking on youtube to see the fights and know every fight by heart.

It's like, this game is not ment for players only, with a mind of a Raider...

In that case, yes let's tune all Heroic raid content to the 12 year old players so they can beat it aswell. After all the game is supposed to be for 12 year old people so they should be able to beat all the content in the game, because they pay their monthly subscription fee. They have the right!

Last edited by Fairmont (2011-01-23 12:54:30)

Dejavu · 2011-01-23 12:58:55

Fairmont wrote:
Dejavu wrote:
what is the age on the cover to buy this game again? 12years old?
I would love to see a 12 year old looking on youtube to see the fights and know every fight by heart.

It's like, this game is not ment for players only, with a mind of a Raider...
In that case, yes let's tune all Heroic raid content to the 12 year old players so they can beat it aswell. After all the game is supposed to be for 12 year old people so they should be able to beat all the content in the game, because they pay their monthly subscription fee. They have the right!

Good idea! But nah, not rly.But I don't see what you are trying to say here Fair...But wow is not only ment for you and me, it's ment for everyone, and many stays on the 5 man heroic side and don't have the skill lvl to get a raider spot, but as I did say, yea I totally respect that dude, eint easy for healers in 5mans at all. And the sad thing is how fast ppl tend to forget about how hard it was after they got their epics, and then they start to troll other ppl on forums. If you are a great player, take your time to tell the ppl what to do, take ur time to Mark, don't burn other players to the ground by yelling at them, telling them they are newbs. And I think the newbs have met abit to many of the "pro's" doing so, during random heroic. Immagine Lamme going with the omg fuxking newb "'jkl"@"&£8@£)6!" gkick if you fail on some thing in a raid, that would be...

Mby you could act like him how he really is to us and be the leader in the group, it takes abit extra time from your side, but for sure helps to sucsess.

Last edited by Dejavu (2011-01-23 13:44:06)

Fairmont · 2011-01-23 13:21:53

Dejavu wrote:
Fairmont wrote:
Dejavu wrote:
what is the age on the cover to buy this game again? 12years old?
I would love to see a 12 year old looking on youtube to see the fights and know every fight by heart.

It's like, this game is not ment for players only, with a mind of a Raider...
In that case, yes let's tune all Heroic raid content to the 12 year old players so they can beat it aswell. After all the game is supposed to be for 12 year old people so they should be able to beat all the content in the game, because they pay their monthly subscription fee. They have the right!
Good idea! But nah, not rly.But I don't see what you are trying to say here Fair...But wow is not only ment for you and me, it's ment for everyone, and many stays on the 5 man heroic side and don't have the skill lvl to get a raider spot, but as I did say, yea I totally respect that dude, eint easy for healers in 5mans at all. And the sad thing is how fast ppl tend to forget about how hard it was after they got their epics, and then they start to troll other ppl on forums.

I know it's not only for raiding people, but what's so bad about Heroics being a little challenging at the start of an expansion? Stuff will get nerfed anyway and in the future the gear inflation will make everything much easier. And if those people are not going to raid anyway, why do they need to clear heroics right away? There are still normals out there

Well that's my opinion anyway.

Last edited by Fairmont (2011-01-23 13:22:09)

Zenghu · 2011-01-23 16:12:29

Ok, now that I have my Cata activated and stuff, I do think I'm gonna take it easy and hop in to heroics after I've done pretty much every single quest available + normal dungeons to get most of the gear out.

Last edited by Zenghu (2011-01-23 16:12:51)

Kaini · 2011-01-23 16:55:27

No can do Zenghu, I'll ninja you to a random hc as soon as your itemlevel allows it.

Mox · 2011-01-24 11:13:14

Heroics should be a place where causal players can find a challenge. Where players that don't have time for raiding to come together and have the same experience as we do in our raids. Trying to figure out the mechanic and to work out a tactic. If you find it too time consuming or are unable to accept that some players need to learn the steps like we did, then you should stay away from heroics.

I personally think that the current mechanics and concequences for not doing what the encounter dictates, set a perfect precedence for the rest of the dungeon experience.

The Enigma Order

Announcement

#1 2011-01-21 15:37:02

Interesting forum post on Cataclysm difficulty

#2 2011-01-21 15:52:47

Re: Interesting forum post on Cataclysm difficulty

#3 2011-01-21 16:19:08

Re: Interesting forum post on Cataclysm difficulty

#4 2011-01-21 17:13:45

Re: Interesting forum post on Cataclysm difficulty

#5 2011-01-21 18:15:02

Re: Interesting forum post on Cataclysm difficulty

#6 2011-01-21 20:34:31

Re: Interesting forum post on Cataclysm difficulty

#7 2011-01-22 13:59:32

Re: Interesting forum post on Cataclysm difficulty

Dejavu wrote:

Ihsahn wrote:

#8 2011-01-22 14:03:35

Re: Interesting forum post on Cataclysm difficulty

#9 2011-01-22 15:19:13

Re: Interesting forum post on Cataclysm difficulty

#10 2011-01-22 15:59:05

Re: Interesting forum post on Cataclysm difficulty

#11 2011-01-22 16:11:33

Re: Interesting forum post on Cataclysm difficulty

Kwindu wrote:

#12 2011-01-22 16:49:55

Re: Interesting forum post on Cataclysm difficulty

Fairmont wrote:

Dejavu wrote:

Ihsahn wrote:

#13 2011-01-22 16:57:08

Re: Interesting forum post on Cataclysm difficulty

#14 2011-01-22 18:18:48

Re: Interesting forum post on Cataclysm difficulty

Dejavu wrote:

#15 2011-01-22 18:33:33

Re: Interesting forum post on Cataclysm difficulty

#16 2011-01-22 19:22:58

Re: Interesting forum post on Cataclysm difficulty

Mox wrote:

#17 2011-01-22 20:03:29

Re: Interesting forum post on Cataclysm difficulty

Mox wrote:

#18 2011-01-23 01:43:05

Re: Interesting forum post on Cataclysm difficulty

#19 2011-01-23 02:34:29

Re: Interesting forum post on Cataclysm difficulty

#20 2011-01-23 12:53:40

Re: Interesting forum post on Cataclysm difficulty

Dejavu wrote:

#21 2011-01-23 12:58:55

Re: Interesting forum post on Cataclysm difficulty

Fairmont wrote:

Dejavu wrote:

#22 2011-01-23 13:21:53

Re: Interesting forum post on Cataclysm difficulty

Dejavu wrote:

Fairmont wrote:

Dejavu wrote:

#23 2011-01-23 16:12:29

Re: Interesting forum post on Cataclysm difficulty

#24 2011-01-23 16:55:27

Re: Interesting forum post on Cataclysm difficulty

#25 2011-01-24 11:13:14

Re: Interesting forum post on Cataclysm difficulty

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