The Enigma Order

Grimbold · 2011-02-02 16:46:14

Yes, thread name sucks, but i didnt know what else to call it

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/1543 … er-read-me

I was browing through mmo champ and found this thread. Man oh man did i get the immediate need to flame this dude.

My general impression is that this fellow is an apologist of the WOTLK model ( is that even possible ?), saying that cataclysm dungeons are way too grindy and the game in general is aswell. When hasnt WoW been grindy? You'd farm stuff untill you'd get everything you needed. Also complains about the difficulty of said dungeons, that it isnt worth it just to get some VP in the end. If the arguement is wotlk vs cata dungeons, then i think its safe to assume a great deal of players will take the later. He'd solve this by tuning the difficulty of said dungeons and for what? To have wotlk back? Ye...no thanks. He keeps talking FUN here and fun there. Dont pull the fun card when trying to convince ppl of how good wotlk was. 10-15min heroics were not fun and dont even try to say that they were when first started ( we all know they werent ). There's a great urge to throw the "you just want the gear handed to you on silver plater" insult.

He also applies the same logic to the raiding content, arguing that so far normal cataclysm raids are too hard for entry lvl content. I think its also safe to say that most of us dont agree with that ( hello blind dragon, give me free loot pls ).

I could go on, but i'd turn this into a flame post.

Anyway, care to share your thoughts on this?

Qurrai · 2011-02-02 16:51:25

Cataclysm is just about gear and class-stacking, at least that is what it seems from the heroic bosses (nefarian hc hello), but I wouldn't mind if the end bosses were a bit easier, while the other bosses are fine imo.

Obscure · 2011-02-02 16:53:38

Getting decked in epics was way too easy in wotlk. Just a few weeks after reaching max level, we all had our shinies. And how fast it took to get great gear late in wotlk.. You had full 235 ir what ever it was just hours after you alt dinged.

But...
The way to max level was both more challenging and more fun in Northrend. I say challenging and mean that it took longer, but you get it.

Grimbold · 2011-02-02 17:02:12

Qurrai wrote:
Cataclysm is just about gear and class-stacking, at least that is what it seems from the heroic bosses (nefarian hc hello), but I wouldn't mind if the end bosses were a bit easier, while the other bosses are fine imo.

Qurrai that is another issue which we all know : Class balance. Blizzard can claim that as their philosophy, but i've stopped believing in it a long time ago. Each xpac is a cycle where the pit gets deeper and larger.

They also said they didnt want class stacking like Sunwell. I supose the fact that in some world 1st certain classes/speccs are being benched disprove that.

Fairmont · 2011-02-02 18:12:28

Bring the player not the class was never intended for Heroic versions of bosses afaik. Minmaxing guilds will always find the small discrepancy between DPS/HPS and pick classes accordingly. There will never be perfect balance because it is simply impossible. For most guilds however the small discrepancies do not matter and are not class-breaking. Note I'm talking about small differences!

Also, the expansion is still young so there is more than enough time for them to balance things.

And I think there already is a thread about the difficulty of Cataclysm heroics. Comes down to people that got used to WotLK heroics, which now have to adapt, which they won't and also don't put enough effort in. But most players are just bad in general because heroics are really not hard at all if people use their brain.
And yes it's somewhat gear dependant, what a miracle!

Grimbold · 2011-02-02 18:18:01

Fairmont wrote:
Also, the expansion is still young so there is more than enough time for them to balance things.

They have alphas, betas and PTRs to balance things.

This philosophy of introducing a class full of falls into a brand new xpac to gradually fix over the course of said xpac, only to have it in a decent condition by the end of it, is stupid and unatractive.

Wrion · 2011-02-02 18:53:18

Grimbold wrote:
Fairmont wrote:
Also, the expansion is still young so there is more than enough time for them to balance things.
They have alphas, betas and PTRs to balance things.

This philosophy of introducing a class full of falls into a brand new xpac to gradually fix over the course of said xpac, only to have it in a decent condition by the end of it, is stupid and unatractive.

Large changes can easily lead to large fails and imbalances, granted they're not doing optimal job about it but I think their philosophy is quite fine.

Windir · 2011-02-02 18:56:19

Grimbold wrote:
They have alphas, betas and PTRs to balance things.

There is never enough players in those tests to balance it tho.

Grimbold · 2011-02-02 20:22:11

The players spend weeks/months testing the things available. The better ones make extensive posts about whats good/ wrong.

Wrion, class overhauls are announced then made available for testing ( beta ) which lasts months. During that time players give alot of feedback, yet the classes go live with many issues left unsolved. What kind of philosophy is that?

What i keep reading about my class is : this issue and that issue were known to blizzard since beta, yet here we are with the same problems.
I think its safe to assume that several other classes/speccs share the same situation.

Wrion · 2011-02-02 20:42:49

Grimbold wrote:
The players spend weeks/months testing the things available. The better ones make extensive posts about whats good/ wrong.

Wrion, class overhauls are announced then made available for testing ( beta ) which lasts months. During that time players give alot of feedback, yet the classes go live with many issues left unsolved. What kind of philosophy is that?

What i keep reading about my class is : this issue and that issue were known to blizzard since beta, yet here we are with the same problems.
I think its safe to assume that several other classes/speccs share the same situation.

Oh yes, for example ignite has been broken since vanilla (or since the pre-TBC patch, depending on what you consider broken), but to claim that Blizzard's philosophy is to do shoddy work is stretching it.
Alpha/beta stages alone do not give sufficient data for complete balance and gradual changes over a period of few live patches are bound to be required, and that way of thinking is what I mean by Blizzard's philosophy.
The apparent fucked up-state of retribution I would not blame on the philosophy but on bad design and their failure to admit it, although I myself lack sufficient data to form an educated opinion on the subject.

EDIT; I think we're going offtopic here, and a fruitless one at that as whether to blame certain in game issues on poor design or on poor philosophy is mainly semantics.

Last edited by Wrion (2011-02-02 20:57:18)

The Enigma Order

Announcement

#1 2011-02-02 16:46:14

Right or Wrong?

#2 2011-02-02 16:51:25

Re: Right or Wrong?

#3 2011-02-02 16:53:38

Re: Right or Wrong?

#4 2011-02-02 17:02:12

Re: Right or Wrong?

Qurrai wrote:

#5 2011-02-02 18:12:28

Re: Right or Wrong?

#6 2011-02-02 18:18:01

Re: Right or Wrong?

Fairmont wrote:

#7 2011-02-02 18:53:18

Re: Right or Wrong?

Grimbold wrote:

Fairmont wrote:

#8 2011-02-02 18:56:19

Re: Right or Wrong?

Grimbold wrote:

#9 2011-02-02 20:22:11

Re: Right or Wrong?

#10 2011-02-02 20:42:49

Re: Right or Wrong?

Grimbold wrote:

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