The Enigma Order

Nemus · 2006-12-30 22:31:44

xzar wrote:
About this whole one-shotting thing:
You could argue that a rogue can run around one-shotting people whenever he feels like it, simply by stealthing up and one-shotting people who are already low on health. And this is something that can be done consistently without depending on luck.

I know that based on that, any class can one-shot people, but the rogue class is sort of defined by this behaviour. How is this different in the long run?

Which class cant one-shot a player with low health?

Anyway, I've heard that the spelldamg bonus on "long casttime spells" like Pyroblast and Soulfire is being changed from 170% to 100%, true?

Last edited by Nemus (2006-12-30 22:44:54)

xzar · 2006-12-30 22:50:54

I tried to reply to this in the last sentence you quoted. I think the difference between the rogue class and all others when it comes to one-shotting low health players, is that this is one of their core abilities.

Look at it this way:
In my own experience, for every time I've been one-shotted by a mage, I've been one-shotted 50 times by rogues.

Last edited by xzar (2006-12-30 23:51:51)

Baloth · 2006-12-31 00:06:19

xzar wrote:
I tried to reply to this in the last sentence you quoted. I think the difference between the rogue class and all others when it comes to one-shotting low health players, is that this is one of their core abilities.

Look at it this way:
In my own experience, for every time I've been one-shotted by a mage, I've been one-shotted 50 times by rogues.

`
I love you Xzar

sweter · 2006-12-31 00:43:15

I can't see any difference between:

- a mage that doesnt give you any chance of reacting, because he 1-shots You

and

- any other class (rogue, hunter, etc) that doesnt give You any chance of reacting, because he stunlocks You or CC's or silences You and crits for Xk damage before you can even cast some instant.

Obscure · 2006-12-31 00:44:48

i got oneshotted by a shaman today.
and i get raped on a regular basis by some warriors. charge, crit and execute.

Beardstorm · 2006-12-31 00:44:53

Rogues only one shot people if the target is low on HP and probably sitting down. This can be prevented by simply not getting that low on HP / bandaging instead of sitting to drink / damage shields when you sit down / paranoia / flare etc...And at any rate this will require a bit of stalking to do since certain classes only need to sit and drink every few mins.

Arcane mage comes along. at 41 yards spams his I WIN macro and boom dead. No counter (well iceblock / fire reflector but yeah not really viable for the majority)

Nemus: I think they buffed channeling spells + Dots dunno about 6 sec casts. Hope they dont buff it, unless spell bonus is diminished on using POM.

xzar · 2006-12-31 01:10:30

Beardstorm wrote:
This can be prevented by simply not getting that low on HP / bandaging instead of sitting to drink / damage shields when you sit down / paranoia / flare etc...

But saying that you constantly have to take these precautions to avoid exposing yourself to rogues...
...could I use the same logic and say that warriors could take precautions to avoid getting oneshotted by equipping more stamina gear and wearing less strength/agility-only gear?

I mean, both are available options for avoiding ones-shots if that is one of the biggest problems in pvp?

Or does the desire to do optimal damage outweigh survivability? (like my desire to keep a steady pace rather than taking several precautions whenever I need to regen in the off-chance that a rogue is sneaking around?)

Last edited by xzar (2006-12-31 01:22:43)

Amra · 2006-12-31 01:39:39

Did someone haxx your forum account xzar? your not making sense...

If you have low HP its NOT one shotting. then its ganking ppl with low health. Everyone can do that, not just rogues. I dont think ambush critts for much more than 2k does it?
But... a mage who does a sheep, pyroblast= dead .. whatever class really. I think it is low skill to just pop a trinket and off we go.

And how does a warrior charge crit execute you Obs.. you have more than 1500 hp right? and even if he charged, got a white critt, a MS critt.. he could not execute, because he would have spent his rage.

Please think about stuff before you make "silly" statements.

xzar · 2006-12-31 01:47:56

Amra wrote:
Did someone haxx your forum account xzar? your not making sense...

If you have low HP its NOT one shotting. then its ganking ppl with low health. Everyone can do that, not just rogues. I dont think ambush critts for much more than 2k does it?

The main argument against oneshotting is that you don't get a chance to fight back, so it's pvp'ing without skill involved. The reason I'm comparing one-shots with rogue ambushes is because it's exactly the same situation that you are put in.

I could choose to look at the rogue class as a class that is all about oneshotting low health players and stunlocking full health players until they are death. Yes, I've tried that more times than I've been oneshotted by casters.

How is the result of this any different from a mage oneshot?

In the end, all I'm really trying to say is that there are so many other "imbalanced" aspects in the game, that I don't understand why the mage-oneshotting gets so much attention

EDIT:
I guess the answer from Blizzard (and perhaps myself) would be the typical "this game is not balanced for 1v1 encounters". And once you start group pvp'ing and people focus fire, anyone goes down in 1 second anyway so who cares how much damage the individual player does?

Last edited by xzar (2006-12-31 01:58:52)

Nemus · 2006-12-31 02:17:30

Seriously, Xzar. Your really not making any sense, or maybe I just dont get it?

Your saying that a rogue oneshotting you when you have 20% hp (i'll use 20% as an example of "low hp"), and a mage oneshotting you when you have 100% hp is the same thing? Seriously, anyone can oneshot a player thats at 20% hp, being invisible or not. When your at 20% your exposed to every class, not just rogues.

My definition of "One-shot" would be losing 100% of your hp to one single spell, and when someone if able to do that I'm calling for a balance check. And its not only warriors that gets one-shotted, every class really.

Xzar wrote:
...could I use the same logic and say that warriors could take precautions to avoid getting oneshotted by equipping more stamina gear and wearing less strength/agility-only gear?

I guess you could, but imo you would have to replace "warriors" with "everyone". And if I were to sacrifice dmg for hp I would sacrifice about 15% crit, 5% hit, and ~300ap for ~1000hp, at which point pvp'ing would be useless. Like I said in Kroxor's post, I'm all for adapting to changes in the game, but as it is now that would not be possible, not for a warrior atleast.

Last edited by Nemus (2006-12-31 02:17:45)

xzar · 2006-12-31 02:26:19

Nemus wrote:
Seriously, Xzar. Your really not making any sense, or maybe I just dont get it?

Your saying that a rogue oneshotting you when you have 20% hp (i'll use 20% as an example of "low hp"), and a mage oneshotting you when you have 100% hp is the same thing? Seriously, anyone can oneshot a player thats at 20% hp, being invisible or not. When your at 20% your exposed to every class, not just rogues.

I'm saying the abilities of a rogue enables him to achieve the same that mages do with oneshots. Killing you without you being able to fight back.

I think I just confused you all by using the word "oneshotting" about it, and I'll just stop doing that and referring to it as "killing you without you being able to fight back".

Where is the difference in being "oneshotted" and being killed in another means while you can't fight back?

EDIT:
I'm sorry if I am unclear in what I'm writing, it's mostly just random thoughts about the problem in general. If I had the answer to it all I would give it, but these are just general observations and questions

Last edited by xzar (2006-12-31 02:40:34)

Obscure · 2006-12-31 02:57:46

i have to defend xzar, i know perfectly well what he is talking about. I have been killed by warriors while stunned from the charge. you know this can happen. dishing out 4k damage in 3 secs. swordproc, heavy critting. fully possible. this is the same as a mage one-shotting with a pyroblast.
just the same i have been stunned to death by rogues. doesnt happen often, usually i get off a fear when im at 10%, but it happens never the less.
or being dotted to death by warlocks, knowing i cant even cleanse the magic spells, due to the unstable affliction.

- getting killed without the possiblity of fighting back, due to heavy dmg output.

Amra · 2006-12-31 03:11:24

xzar wrote:
Nemus wrote:
Seriously, Xzar. Your really not making any sense, or maybe I just dont get it?

Your saying that a rogue oneshotting you when you have 20% hp (i'll use 20% as an example of "low hp"), and a mage oneshotting you when you have 100% hp is the same thing? Seriously, anyone can oneshot a player thats at 20% hp, being invisible or not. When your at 20% your exposed to every class, not just rogues.
I'm saying the abilities of a rogue enables him to achieve the same that mages do with oneshots. Killing you without you being able to fight back.

I think I just confused you all by using the word "oneshotting" about it, and I'll just stop doing that and referring to it as "killing you without you being able to fight back".

Where is the difference in being "oneshotted" and being killed in another means while you can't fight back?

EDIT:
I'm sorry if I am unclear in what I'm writing, it's mostly just random thoughts about the problem in general. If I had the answer to it all I would give it, but these are just general observations and questions

Here is the deal: a rogue stunnlocking you from full HP until dead recuires mad skills, and/or use of all cooldowns, with prep-specc i would think. In both cases it is not something you do all the time. Now locks and mages go on a constant ez-mode streak that is quite different.

And about the gear... I have been playing war a lot, i have what i consider good gear and i pride myself in beeing able to balance my gear for the task at hand. NO you can not equip more HP and hope to survive a mage or a warlock. I will refer to what nemus wrote, because that is sortof how it is for us.
I can win a duel maybe! if i use intimidating shout and the pvp trinket, wich i dont think is really good enought to walk around with in BG's.
I have ca 5,2k hp in my PvP gear, and i dont get one shotted... they usually follow up with some instaspell.. but in so many words.. i am not able to fight back with any significanse. Sure i kill them in BG's, but that is another deal. Duel and worldpvp i am lucky if i get those classes down.

So the reply to your posts xzar, i still dont think what you write is right. It takes WAY more for a rogue to kill someone without them beeing able to fight back than mages, not to mention destro locks or whatever those fuckers are.

Edit; and je obs, it can happen with svord proc and HoJ.. but not very likely. It is what HL are made of tbh. Like that Hulksmash guy: 3,1k BT with enrage, 2xcrusaders, zerger buff, reclesness and deathwish... GL getting 2 of those in a row.

Last edited by Amra (2006-12-31 03:14:55)

Nemus · 2006-12-31 03:22:42

Obscure wrote:
I have been killed by warriors while stunned from the charge. you know this can happen. dishing out 4k damage in 3 secs.

Chargestun is 1 second.

Nemus · 2006-12-31 03:26:32

xzar wrote:
I'm saying the abilities of a rogue enables him to achieve the same that mages do with oneshots. Killing you without you being able to fight back.

I think I just confused you all by using the word "oneshotting" about it, and I'll just stop doing that and referring to it as "killing you without you being able to fight back".

Where is the difference in being "oneshotted" and being killed in another means while you can't fight back?

EDIT:
I'm sorry if I am unclear in what I'm writing, it's mostly just random thoughts about the problem in general. If I had the answer to it all I would give it, but these are just general observations and questions

Yes, I agree with that. That is ~the same, but killing someone with one single spell and killing someone with a series of spells used at the exact right time is different, imo atleast.

xzar · 2006-12-31 03:49:38

Nemus wrote:
Yes, I agree with that. That is ~the same, but killing someone with one single spell and killing someone with a series of spells used at the exact right time is different, imo atleast.

But would it be more balanced if mage spells did less damage but incapacitated the opponent so that you were stunlocked while being killed?

Sort of like:
Pyroblast (opponent stunned)
Fireball (opponent...blinded?)
Fireball + Fireblast (opponent dead)

That's (roughly speaking) my experience in many many rogue encounters. Perhaps it's a cloth thing where rogues tend to be more daring than against plate/leather, I dunno? I can only speak from my own experience, of course, and as I've said I don't remember ever being killed by a single spell but I've been stunlucked to death more times than I can remember. I've even had it happen to me a couple of times in the middle of Ironforge, where the rogue managed to get away afterwards.

(admittedly, warlocks have very few defensive skills to prevent stunlocks compared to other classes)

Is the main criticism the fact that it only requires one spellcast (it's easy) rather than the fact that you can't fight back?

Last edited by xzar (2006-12-31 03:53:55)

Nemus · 2006-12-31 03:59:42

xzar wrote:
Is the main criticism the fact that it only requires one spellcast (it's easy) rather than the fact that you can't fight back?

Yes.

Using a series of spells to "stunlock" and opponent requires skill, lots of it from my experience. Pressing on button does not.

Amra · 2006-12-31 04:10:45

See what i wrote above. a series of skills in every class requires skill. In most cases you also have to be lucky, but not mages and locks

xzar · 2006-12-31 04:16:03

Amra wrote:
In most cases you also have to be lucky, but not mages and locks

Are you saying that making a crit (or a series of crits) high enough to almost instantly kill an opponent is not luck? I have ~15% crit chance, so for me to crit with two spells in a row is like a couple of times in a hundred. And who is to say that it happens when I activate trinkets (or arcane power or whatever)?

I would argue that it is nothing but pure luck, and that it is not something you can rely on at all in your pvp strategies. And you can tell when you fight players who depend on lucky crits - when they only make normal hits they usually don't know how to follow up on it.

Sure it sucks to be oneshotted, but I doubt that the opponent was thinking "there goes Amra, I'm gonna instagib him now *activates trinkets and casts spell* = 6000k damage".

It just doesn't work that way, although you might perceive it to be so. Just like I have the idea that just about every rogue on Stormreaver knows how to run around and do perfect stunlocks, even though this is far from the truth.

Last edited by xzar (2006-12-31 04:19:29)

Obscure · 2006-12-31 04:27:17

imo getting stunned to death, or wtfpwnd by a warrior on a critting spree is worse than getting one-shotted by mages (or locks/hunters when im at 50%)

Geirkri · 2006-12-31 04:35:18

Well look at it this way, atm EVERY class in wow has insane DPS (even paladins before CS and venegance nerf). Because of all the damage abilitys beeing boosted now before TBC, but stamina was not boosted.

I can with some luck dish out 4-6k damage within hammer of justice, most classes die then, end of story.

Rogues have always had a big advantage when it comes to ganking, due to stealth, and the high crits they can get with some skills because of stealth (backstab or mutilate anyone?)

Personally I think this will even a bit out in TBC when there is more stamina items, if not, blizzard has to do some SERIOUS nerfing, because imo PVP is now worse than ever, you don`t need skills, you just need crits. :S

Last edited by Geirkri (2006-12-31 04:36:20)

Beardstorm · 2006-12-31 05:42:43

xzar wrote:
Sure it sucks to be oneshotted, but I doubt that the opponent was thinking "there goes Amra, I'm gonna instagib him now *activates trinkets and casts spell* = 6000k damage".

I think most mages do think that. Or something closer to "lol im gonna 2 shot this guy". Most of em can't fight back after AP is out. More often it's getting 2 shotted since theres the instant Pyro followed by instant fireblast which is still pretty much impossible to fight back against. Thats why I think it sucks anyways

sweter · 2006-12-31 05:53:10

Amra wrote:
Here is the deal: a rogue stunnlocking you from full HP until dead recuires mad skills, and/or use of all cooldowns,

And 1-shotting anyone as a mage requires no skills, but MAD gear and use of all cooldowns. Same thing.

Amra · 2006-12-31 06:26:56

Beardstorm wrote:
xzar wrote:
Sure it sucks to be oneshotted, but I doubt that the opponent was thinking "there goes Amra, I'm gonna instagib him now *activates trinkets and casts spell* = 6000k damage".
I think most mages do think that. Or something closer to "lol im gonna 2 shot this guy". Most of em can't fight back after AP is out. More often it's getting 2 shotted since theres the instant Pyro followed by instant fireblast which is still pretty much impossible to fight back against. Thats why I think it sucks anyways

Jepp its never "one" shotted but rather an instagib. And if it fails to finish me off, just frostnova and frostbolt/fireball or whatnot.

Sweter: skill and trinket with 2min CD is NOT the same thing by a long shot!

Xzar: how much dmg does your dots do? 4-5k with your gear? a normal shadowbolt.. how much? You have and "unbreakable fear" that heals you on top of your normal fear and a succubus or a rampaging warrior pet. YOU DONT NEED TO CRITT. I get that udaude tjuva with will of the forsaken can breake seduce, but common... you can even summon healing pots.

Bankropt · 2006-12-31 06:33:59

sweter wrote:
Amra wrote:
Here is the deal: a rogue stunnlocking you from full HP until dead recuires mad skills, and/or use of all cooldowns,
And 1-shotting anyone as a mage requires no skills, but MAD gear and use of all cooldowns. Same thing.

This post from Sweter has the one balancing factor. It is true that whenever a mage (I'll keep mage only as the example here) oneshots someone with a huge crit with trinket / AP on, the act itself doesnt require any skill. But to get to the position where that mage is requires huge amounts of skill and time otherwise. This is due to all the +dmg-gear / t2 or t3 and the trinket. It has required the mage good skill, good teamwork (aka guild), and lots of time to get those things. He has used skill for a long time to obtain those items that enable him such power.

My mage has "just hit 60"-gear. I even got almost full magister set (t0). But this far the biggest crit I have had has been a 1,5k fireball with the best possible situation for me (imp. scorch giving +dmg, warrior in berserk stance, me having a full fire build). It is just not possible to crit that much more with my situation. Even if I would have the +30 from AP, that would take me somewhere below 2k (would have to spec arcane => no more firetalents). I havent spent time and my mages skills to get good gear. Because of that I am not capable of oneshotting anyone lvl 50+ (maybe some 51 mages with no stamina ><). Even with incredible situational factors.

The situation here is you are calling for a nerf to the overall class because of a top player with top gear and a stroke of luck and thus managed to do that kind of damage. With my mage I can get two-shotted by hunters, warriors, locks, mages. Almost anyone with that much better gear (t2).

But now I started rambling. My point was that it is true that act itself for that player doesnt require any skill. But getting there does. It is such a rare thing and the situation difficult to obtain, I claim it is not a valid reason to wave the nerf bat around. Should I start screaming for a warrior nerf when a t1 warrior can beat my mage in a duel just because he can get my 2,5k hp down with two hits without me being able to fight back? Or a t2 rogue killing me with ambush+backstab. (I've had an almost 2k ambush on me I think).

My thoughts on the matter.

Let the flaming continue...

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