The Enigma Order

Merobo wrote:

2) Judgement of Wisdom: mana gained reduced to 1% of maximum mana and proc frequency cut by 50%. This ability was flat out better than Vampiric Touch when the mana provided between the two really needs to be close in order for the decision between Shadow priest and Retribution paladin to be a real one.
Has to do with endless mana. Fair change. this meens palas can still give quite some dmg, but there is now a limit of how long they will be able too.
This is a good change. It atleast give ret palas the same limitations as other mana classes.

3) Judgement and Seals: Damage reduced by 20%. This is the major damage adjustment -- a lot of damage was coming from these. We do realize this hurts Holy and Protection as well, and that is something for which we are prepared to offer compensation (particularly if it hurts Protection's threat generation).

This changes will be a GREAT problem for tankadin too. Protection paladin will got his threat reduced by 20% it means there will be no chance for him to tank a single target without the old Blessing of Salvation (which was removed). The other problem will come from the mana refuse by the new JOW means Merobo will go OOM after 1 or 2 consacration (16 seconds fight) cause with the new itemization int is removed from the protection gear.

In few words protection paladin after the new patch will see his treath reduced by 50%, cause he cant keep his TPS rotation up for the full fight anymore.

Ill check if my maths is correct, if it will i think ill park my prot paladin till they will correct this stupid nerf.

thats wrong. Threat % and dps % isnt the same. Just by having rightious fury up gives you 90% (?) more threat on your abilities.
If you cant keep agro without the new tanking threat boost, nor salvation, either you dont do it right, or dps dont respect your threat. - knowing what kind of tank you are, i would say the last mentioned.
Also its stated that if its going to be to much of a problem, they will compensate for it.

and where does the 50% threat reduction come from? how long is a full fight?
Prot arent penalized like warriors and druids with tps. In a multitank boss fight, paladins doesnt suffer from ragestarving as Offtarget like warriors or druids.
Giving you a penalize on tps like warriors and druids have it makes you more on pair with those classes.

Mojorising wrote:

thats wrong. Threat % and dps % isnt the same. Just by having rightious fury up gives you 90% (?) more threat on your abilities.
If you cant keep agro without the new tanking threat boost, nor salvation, either you dont do it right, or dps dont respect your threat. - knowing what kind of tank you are, i would say the last mentioned.
Also its stated that if its going to be to much of a problem, they will compensate for it.

and where does the 50% threat reduction come from? how long is a full fight?
Prot arent penalized like warriors and druids with tps. In a multitank boss fight, paladins doesnt suffer from ragestarving as Offtarget like warriors or druids.
Giving you a penalize on tps like warriors and druids have it makes you more on pair with those classes.

Well Mojo, if all paladins threat comes from holy attacks and the suddenly your holy attacks hit 20% less, are you really claiming it won't affect paladins agro? It will affect some point, but it's pretty hasty say is it anything significant, especially in wotlk, where raid bosses has just received 10% armor buff, which will affect druid/warrior threat, but not paladin threat. My guess is that they propably are pretty much same.

Mojo there's situation where paladin suffers mana starving For example if warrior started tanking in bloodpoil, paladin couldn't stand with agro building because he didn't get mana back due the lack of damage he got. I think more than anything merobo is sad, because now he needs to start sit and drink everytime after pulling back on 5 man instance due the lack luster mana regen.. Wouldn't you say it sucks bit to wait 30sec after each pull?

Vonhankkija wrote:

Well Mojo, if all paladins threat comes from holy attacks and the suddenly your holy attacks hit 20% less, are you really claiming it won't affect paladins agro? It will affect some point, but it's pretty hasty say is it anything significant, especially in wotlk, where raid bosses has just received 10% armor buff, which will affect druid/warrior threat, but not paladin threat. My guess is that they propably are pretty much same.

Mojo there's situation where paladin suffers mana starving For example if warrior started tanking in bloodpoil, paladin couldn't stand with agro building because he didn't get mana back due the lack of damage he got. I think more than anything merobo is sad, because now he needs to start sit and drink everytime after pulling back on 5 man instance due the lack luster mana regen.. Wouldn't you say it sucks bit to wait 30sec after each pull?

im not claiming it wont affect it? those are your words of doom, not mine.
Im saying there is a difference between dps and threat. and with an ability that gives alot more threat when active, a 20% dmg nerf isnt the end of the world for a tankadin.

10% more armor will affect physical attacks (pala white hits, druids and warriors), not holy dmg. again something that supports my theory that prot paladins wont suffer. How is that an argument toward what i just mentioned?

There is a reason we have merobo be the first tank at BB.
But palas dont start a fight beeing mana starved, while druids and warriors start with no rage. So you cant really compare mana starving with rage. (not to mention all the mana regen from different sources doing a bossfight.)

healers have to sit and drink, mages have to sit and drink. Protection specced palas too. BIG deal. there are no challenge if you could just spam all your abilities all the time without anykind of penalty. Even before the patch you had to sit and drink once in a while. I spend 1 hour on constant farming with my paladin today. How many breaks do you think i had? Even after pulling an elite and not realize it before i was done with my 2 buttons / hammer of wrath combo and i suddenly couldnt loot the corpse.

Now you have to think again. hold back so you dont just faceroll the keybord for 2 min before you loot the boss. So adapt. and its a nerf, not a removal. Its not the end of the world. But everytime i see comments about it, it really seems like every single paladin think that he is the only source of mana regen there is... You have been scaled down to be on pair with other regen classes (Shadow priests). accept it. its called balance.

I understand merobo perfectly fine. I was sad and thought it was the end of the world too when they nerfed my bearform, and made me scale with my gear. I realized that it wasnt the end of the world. I adapted and moved on. Over time, there was alot of problems threatwise, and it took some time, but in the end blizzard balanced my abilities so they worked.
Now they apparently nerfed me again, but still its not the end of the world.

Have some faith instead of thinking a 20% dmg nerf (and its not even an overall nerf, but faces certain aspects that was infact domintating toward class balance), and a normal mana regen is the end of the world.

read what i wrote: NORMAL MANA REGEN. "NORMAL"

As a sidenote.. i can call out wolf for my class too, when people talk about aspects of my class that seems imbalanced. drinking between packs in a 5 man before pulls have nothing to do with TPS as we where discussing. So i dont really see a point in it.

Seeing paladins compare the mana nerfs with manaburn on the EU forum are what makes me laugh at them. Ignorant bastards. doesnt justify anything, but a merly excuse to find a reason why this shouldnt be balanced. So all they see is how they are getting mana burned in battlegrounds, and does not see any other side at all.
Just as i see feral druids complaining about how they run oom against sertain classes, because they have to shapeshift all the time. They refuse to see how to step out of the box, and try a different approach. Im not even going to participate on the EU forums about this, because everyone with just the slightest sence get these kind of empty and lame excuses thrown back together with a GTFO message.
Sad to see a community like that, becuase 90% of those posting there seems to have no idea what the hell is going on, and are to narrow minded to see it from other sides.
When i see comments like "Im quitting my pala, and this game" i get the picture of a 5 year old that cant have candy before dinner.. I want to smack them in the face. Its a MMO, and blizzard is trying to balance it as much as possible.. complaining about not beeing overpowered anymore?? Then i suggest find a FPS game, and play it on easy, since that might be alittle more your style

I seriously hope you guys can see the justification in this, and what i responded. Its perfectly fine.
I have a paladin too, and i feel with those who was fed with false hope about the class, but i can perfectly understand the changes that is going on.

And yes, i have a lvl 80 paladin on beta, so i do have an idea of how it is there compaired to lvl 70.

(note the "You"s are directed at those who cry like babies on the EU forum)