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  •  » Are they once again going to assrape paladin before launch? :(

#26 2008-10-27 21:45:43

Mojorising
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From: Odense (Bolbro), Denmark
Registered: 2005-09-07
Posts: 3845
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Re: Are they once again going to assrape paladin before launch? :(

Merobo wrote:

2) Judgement of Wisdom: mana gained reduced to 1% of maximum mana and proc frequency cut by 50%. This ability was flat out better than Vampiric Touch when the mana provided between the two really needs to be close in order for the decision between Shadow priest and Retribution paladin to be a real one.
Has to do with endless mana. Fair change. this meens palas can still give quite some dmg, but there is now a limit of how long they will be able too.
This is a good change. It atleast give ret palas the same limitations as other mana classes.

3) Judgement and Seals: Damage reduced by 20%. This is the major damage adjustment -- a lot of damage was coming from these. We do realize this hurts Holy and Protection as well, and that is something for which we are prepared to offer compensation (particularly if it hurts Protection's threat generation).

This changes will be a GREAT problem for tankadin too. Protection paladin will got his threat reduced by 20% it means there will be no chance for him to tank a single target without the old Blessing of Salvation (which was removed). The other problem will come from the mana refuse by the new JOW means Merobo will go OOM after 1 or 2 consacration (16 seconds fight) cause with the new itemization int is removed from the protection gear.

In few words protection paladin after the new patch will see his treath reduced by 50%, cause he cant keep his TPS rotation up for the full fight anymore.

Ill check if my maths is correct, if it will i think ill park my prot paladin till they will correct this stupid nerf.

thats wrong. Threat % and dps % isnt the same. Just by having rightious fury up gives you 90% (?) more threat on your abilities.
If you cant keep agro without the new tanking threat boost, nor salvation, either you dont do it right, or dps dont respect your threat. - knowing what kind of tank you are, i would say the last mentioned.
Also its stated that if its going to be to much of a problem, they will compensate for it.

and where does the 50% threat reduction come from? how long is a full fight?
Prot arent penalized like warriors and druids with tps. In a multitank boss fight, paladins doesnt suffer from ragestarving as Offtarget like warriors or druids.
Giving you a penalize on tps like warriors and druids have it makes you more on pair with those classes.

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#27 2008-10-28 01:20:19

Merobo
Guild Member
Registered: 2008-05-09
Posts: 447

Re: Are they once again going to assrape paladin before launch? :(

Now ill explain u where the 50% TPS nerf come:

Paladin build aggro ONLY with holy dmg which comes from judgement, consacration, Seal. The new judgemnt+Seal dmg nerf (-20% on seal and -20% on judgement) will hit us a lot, then u have to add the coefficent change, it means our AP/SD bonus will be nerfed too by 8%. It means 28% less HOLY dmg = -28% threat generated on a boss. U can always say with RF on we got +90% threat, but that was on by long time (without it it is IMPOSSIBLE to keep aggro).

After that u have to add the mana problem that im going to explain u now:

Pre nerf JOW = 3% and 100% proc
After nerf JOW = 1% and 50% proc

It means i cant spam consacration, hammer, judgement, holy shield, Avenger shield anymore in order to build around 3k TPS, otherwise ill go OOM after the second rotation (remeber that we dont have mana back from Overhealing). It means i have to FORGET the consacration spam (which is our 25% threat builder).

So add 25% less TPS from mana problem to 28% less TPS from holy dmg nerf and u will obtain 53% (i said 50% cause prolly ive done some maths errors, but i really dont think so cause im calculating them since 8 hours).


P.S. u have to remeber that Judgement will be nerfed by 20% AND the Seal contribution will be nerfed by 20% too, then u have to add that the SEAL will be nerfed by 20%: JoV now hit for around 1,4k (after 5 hit landed), after the nerf it will hit for 1120 while my SOV will tick for 200 instead of 280 every 3 sec. All the dmg reduction will drop down our Threat "to the ground" like lot of protection paladin tried on Beta.

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#28 2008-10-28 01:22:26

Vonhankkija
Officer
From: Kauhava, Finland
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 2836

Re: Are they once again going to assrape paladin before launch? :(

Mojorising wrote:

thats wrong. Threat % and dps % isnt the same. Just by having rightious fury up gives you 90% (?) more threat on your abilities.
If you cant keep agro without the new tanking threat boost, nor salvation, either you dont do it right, or dps dont respect your threat. - knowing what kind of tank you are, i would say the last mentioned.
Also its stated that if its going to be to much of a problem, they will compensate for it.

and where does the 50% threat reduction come from? how long is a full fight?
Prot arent penalized like warriors and druids with tps. In a multitank boss fight, paladins doesnt suffer from ragestarving as Offtarget like warriors or druids.
Giving you a penalize on tps like warriors and druids have it makes you more on pair with those classes.

Well Mojo, if all paladins threat comes from holy attacks and the suddenly your holy attacks hit 20% less, are you really claiming it won't affect paladins agro? smile It will affect some point, but it's pretty hasty say is it anything significant, especially in wotlk, where raid bosses has just received 10% armor buff, which will affect druid/warrior threat, but not paladin threat. My guess is that they propably are pretty much same.

Mojo there's situation where paladin suffers mana starving smile For example if warrior started tanking in bloodpoil, paladin couldn't stand with agro building because he didn't get mana back due the lack of damage he got. I think more than anything merobo is sad, because now he needs to start sit and drink everytime after pulling back on 5 man instance due the lack luster mana regen.. Wouldn't you say it sucks bit to wait 30sec after each pull?


"- Tuskin Mikankaan kohalla on väkisin työnnetty piikkiä perseeseen, Nykänen päätteli."

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#29 2008-10-28 01:26:49

Vonhankkija
Officer
From: Kauhava, Finland
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 2836

Re: Are they once again going to assrape paladin before launch? :(

It also seems, that blizzard is continuing their paladin tuning.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa … id=2000#11

Since then, what we're finding is that Ret's dps seems okay on PvE but only if they use a lot of expensive AE spells like Consecration and Holy Wrath even against single targets in long fights (e.g. raid bosses), which in turn causes them to run out of mana too quickly. Players suspect that if they don't use those spells that their dps won't be competitive. That is what we are looking at right now. Buffing Martyr / Blood might be an option since those are more often used in PvE and riskier to use in PvP.

This sound much better imo. It sucks big time to be forced to use AOE skills on single target boss fight. Would be nice to be able due competitive dps without need to use consecration anymore..


"- Tuskin Mikankaan kohalla on väkisin työnnetty piikkiä perseeseen, Nykänen päätteli."

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#30 2008-10-28 02:12:00

Mojorising
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From: Odense (Bolbro), Denmark
Registered: 2005-09-07
Posts: 3845
Website

Re: Are they once again going to assrape paladin before launch? :(

Vonhankkija wrote:

Well Mojo, if all paladins threat comes from holy attacks and the suddenly your holy attacks hit 20% less, are you really claiming it won't affect paladins agro? smile It will affect some point, but it's pretty hasty say is it anything significant, especially in wotlk, where raid bosses has just received 10% armor buff, which will affect druid/warrior threat, but not paladin threat. My guess is that they propably are pretty much same.

Mojo there's situation where paladin suffers mana starving smile For example if warrior started tanking in bloodpoil, paladin couldn't stand with agro building because he didn't get mana back due the lack of damage he got. I think more than anything merobo is sad, because now he needs to start sit and drink everytime after pulling back on 5 man instance due the lack luster mana regen.. Wouldn't you say it sucks bit to wait 30sec after each pull?

im not claiming it wont affect it? those are your words of doom, not mine.
Im saying there is a difference between dps and threat. and with an ability that gives alot more threat when active, a 20% dmg nerf isnt the end of the world for a tankadin.

10% more armor will affect physical attacks (pala white hits, druids and warriors), not holy dmg. again something that supports my theory that prot paladins wont suffer. How is that an argument toward what i just mentioned?

There is a reason we have merobo be the first tank at BB.
But palas dont start a fight beeing mana starved, while druids and warriors start with no rage. So you cant really compare mana starving with rage. (not to mention all the mana regen from different sources doing a bossfight.)

healers have to sit and drink, mages have to sit and drink. Protection specced palas too. BIG deal. there are no challenge if you could just spam all your abilities all the time without anykind of penalty. Even before the patch you had to sit and drink once in a while. I spend 1 hour on constant farming with my paladin today. How many breaks do you think i had? Even after pulling an elite and not realize it before i was done with my 2 buttons / hammer of wrath combo and i suddenly couldnt loot the corpse.

Now you have to think again. hold back so you dont just faceroll the keybord for 2 min before you loot the boss. So adapt. and its a nerf, not a removal. Its not the end of the world. But everytime i see comments about it, it really seems like every single paladin think that he is the only source of mana regen there is... You have been scaled down to be on pair with other regen classes (Shadow priests). accept it. its called balance.

I understand merobo perfectly fine. I was sad and thought it was the end of the world too when they nerfed my bearform, and made me scale with my gear. I realized that it wasnt the end of the world. I adapted and moved on. Over time, there was alot of problems threatwise, and it took some time, but in the end blizzard balanced my abilities so they worked.
Now they apparently nerfed me again, but still its not the end of the world.

Have some faith instead of thinking a 20% dmg nerf (and its not even an overall nerf, but faces certain aspects that was infact domintating toward class balance), and a normal mana regen is the end of the world.

read what i wrote: NORMAL MANA REGEN. "NORMAL" tongue

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#31 2008-10-28 02:30:06

Mojorising
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From: Odense (Bolbro), Denmark
Registered: 2005-09-07
Posts: 3845
Website

Re: Are they once again going to assrape paladin before launch? :(

i missed your post there merobo

Merobo wrote:

Now ill explain u where the 50% TPS nerf come:

Paladin build aggro ONLY with holy dmg which comes from judgement, consacration, Seal. The new judgemnt+Seal dmg nerf (-20% on seal and -20% on judgement) will hit us a lot, then u have to add the coefficent change, it means our AP/SD bonus will be nerfed too by 8%. It means 28% less HOLY dmg = -28% threat generated on a boss. U can always say with RF on we got +90% threat, but that was on by long time (without it it is IMPOSSIBLE to keep aggro).

gonna stop you there...

Not true. lets take last brutallus kill as an example. 18% of your dmg came from physical attacks
http://wowwebstats.com/vtsmlb2zpcrzk?s= … ;a=x1f6bf0

You say that your agro comes from judgement, consecration and seals. Thats 3 attacks.
According to above WWS you use 10 abilites beside the auto attacks. And you are frustrated you will go out of mana? i dont blame you. thats 7 mana costing abilities more than you should.

and 28% holy dmg is still not the same as 28% threat.
IF it was, you would have to do more dps than the dpsers on untauntable bosses, but you dont since your abilities generate more threat. ontop of that you have RF so you generate aditional threat.

edit: also 20% on 2 abilites isnt the same as 40% overall, since they have different dmg. if one ability does 10 dmg, it would do 8 dmg after the nerf. The other might do 100 so that would be 80 after the nerf. that would be a total of 110 - 2 - 20 = 88 dmg from the 2 abilities. 40% from 110 isnt 88, so the multiplication doesnt count.
also, i still dont see where 50% threat loss comes from.


After that u have to add the mana problem that im going to explain u now:

Pre nerf JOW = 3% and 100% proc
After nerf JOW = 1% and 50% proc

It means i cant spam consacration, hammer, judgement, holy shield, Avenger shield anymore in order to build around 3k TPS, otherwise ill go OOM after the second rotation (remeber that we dont have mana back from Overhealing). It means i have to FORGET the consacration spam (which is our 25% threat builder).

Keyword there would be spam. Blizzard dont want you to be able to just spam. If they would, i would spec moonkin/feral hybrid and use moonfire to tank.
And you forgot one important factor. With a manaregen class in the raid, you dont need heals to get mana back, but will get it when you hit the mob (pala mana regen) when the totem ticks (shaman) or the shadow priest do dmg. And if you crit, you will get mana back from the new Leader of the pack too.
And that again proves my point. you are not the only source of doing mana regen in a raid inviroment.
Do you think namino would do the dps he did, if he only had his own manaregen. Nope. Same as your TPS. This is a matter of raidbuffs, and not 25 people standing together with the same abilities.

So add 25% less TPS from mana problem to 28% less TPS from holy dmg nerf and u will obtain 53% (i said 50% cause prolly ive done some maths errors, but i really dont think so cause im calculating them since 8 hours).

what i wrote above makes this a non issue, and thereby not a holding argument.
+ your assumption is, that you are at 100% hp all the time and thereby not gaining any mana from spiritual attunement or what the passive talent is called.

P.S. u have to remeber that Judgement will be nerfed by 20% AND the Seal contribution will be nerfed by 20% too, then u have to add that the SEAL will be nerfed by 20%: JoV now hit for around 1,4k (after 5 hit landed), after the nerf it will hit for 1120 while my SOV will tick for 200 instead of 280 every 3 sec. All the dmg reduction will drop down our Threat "to the ground" like lot of protection paladin tried on Beta.

yes, it will be lower. Ghostcrawler said that. I havent said that it wouldnt.

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#32 2008-10-28 03:27:53

Mojorising
Officer
From: Odense (Bolbro), Denmark
Registered: 2005-09-07
Posts: 3845
Website

Re: Are they once again going to assrape paladin before launch? :(

As a sidenote.. i can call out wolf for my class too, when people talk about aspects of my class that seems imbalanced. drinking between packs in a 5 man before pulls have nothing to do with TPS as we where discussing. So i dont really see a point in it.

Seeing paladins compare the mana nerfs with manaburn on the EU forum are what makes me laugh at them. Ignorant bastards. doesnt justify anything, but a merly excuse to find a reason why this shouldnt be balanced. So all they see is how they are getting mana burned in battlegrounds, and does not see any other side at all.
Just as i see feral druids complaining about how they run oom against sertain classes, because they have to shapeshift all the time. They refuse to see how to step out of the box, and try a different approach. Im not even going to participate on the EU forums about this, because everyone with just the slightest sence get these kind of empty and lame excuses thrown back together with a GTFO message.
Sad to see a community like that, becuase 90% of those posting there seems to have no idea what the hell is going on, and are to narrow minded to see it from other sides.
When i see comments like "Im quitting my pala, and this game" i get the picture of a 5 year old that cant have candy before dinner.. I want to smack them in the face. Its a MMO, and blizzard is trying to balance it as much as possible.. complaining about not beeing overpowered anymore?? Then i suggest find a FPS game, and play it on easy, since that might be alittle more your style

I seriously hope you guys can see the justification in this, and what i responded. Its perfectly fine.
I have a paladin too, and i feel with those who was fed with false hope about the class, but i can perfectly understand the changes that is going on.

And yes, i have a lvl 80 paladin on beta, so i do have an idea of how it is there compaired to lvl 70.

(note the "You"s are directed at those who cry like babies on the EU forum)

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#33 2008-10-28 09:09:29

Draken
Guild Member
From: Denmark
Registered: 2005-08-17
Posts: 1912

Re: Are they once again going to assrape paladin before launch? :(

In essence, stop comparing apples to oranges.


"You called down the thunder, now reap the whirlwind!"

"You got an organ going there, no wonder the sound has so much body!"

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