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#1 2010-03-14 21:08:46

Kaini
Guild Member
Registered: 2006-12-16
Posts: 398

Speculation, speculation

http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.htm … &sid=1

I think the blue poster implies, that there are factors that could effect the failing of Abolish Disease. Hit perhaps? More work for Lamia. wink


The cliques of artists and writers consist for the most part of a racket selling amusement to people who at all costs must be prevented from thinking themselves vulgar, and a conspiracy to call it not amusement but art. (Collingwood 1938: 90)

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#2 2010-03-15 00:14:04

Fairmont
Guild Member
From: The Netherlands
Registered: 2009-09-07
Posts: 560
Website

Re: Speculation, speculation

Yes, as I said Dispel Magic and Abolish Disease are based on spellhit. Simple as that tongue

Last edited by Fairmont (2010-03-15 00:14:23)

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#3 2010-03-15 00:55:13

Kaini
Guild Member
Registered: 2006-12-16
Posts: 398

Re: Speculation, speculation

Well, in that case, would it be Lamia's job to abolish the disease?


The cliques of artists and writers consist for the most part of a racket selling amusement to people who at all costs must be prevented from thinking themselves vulgar, and a conspiracy to call it not amusement but art. (Collingwood 1938: 90)

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#4 2010-03-15 10:00:46

Draken
Guild Member
From: Denmark
Registered: 2005-08-17
Posts: 1912

Re: Speculation, speculation

I do believe I said that abolish disease was based on spell hit last reset when it failed a few times, but there was someone, that I can't remember who was, who said spellhit had no influence on it, but the matter of the fact is that any spell that doesn't heal has a chance to miss/fail and spell hit reduces said chance.


"You called down the thunder, now reap the whirlwind!"

"You got an organ going there, no wonder the sound has so much body!"

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#5 2010-03-15 10:14:23

Lamme
Guildmaster
Registered: 2005-08-21
Posts: 8597

Re: Speculation, speculation

Detective Lamme is onto this one!

From what I've read, abolish disease has an innate chance of fail (not miss), which is estimated at level below 1%. It was aknowledged by Blizzard, it's not affected by hit rating. This is beforing reading Kaini's link, I'll sure as hell get to the bottom of it! big_smile

edit: I think I had a little reading with comprehension fail hmm

Ghostcrawler on hit for dispelling purposes

This IS strange though. I don't expect Mox to be anywhere near hit cap and his dispells failed very rarely. At the same time, I'm almost certain I did read that failed dispells where not dependant on hit, but rather had an innate fail chance. 1 option is to have a dps (so hit capped) person dispelling, however, with all honesty, I'm not exactly keen on introducing such a change at this stage.

Other half measure is to have a holy paladin doing it, since I believe they have some +hit through talents?

Last edited by Lamme (2010-03-15 10:42:01)

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#6 2010-03-15 10:54:46

Kaini
Guild Member
Registered: 2006-12-16
Posts: 398

Re: Speculation, speculation

Or we could give Mox the Fox a draenei sacrifice and make him consume it with some delicious +hit food, that would probably do the trick too.

Edit: IF this goes by the same logic as MC'ing Deathknight Understudies on Razuvius (have no evidence to back this assumption up thou), the sufficient amount of hit would be 158. So 40 from food, 14ish from draenei and rest from talents and gear perhaps?

Last edited by Kaini (2010-03-15 11:06:22)


The cliques of artists and writers consist for the most part of a racket selling amusement to people who at all costs must be prevented from thinking themselves vulgar, and a conspiracy to call it not amusement but art. (Collingwood 1938: 90)

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#7 2010-03-15 11:36:06

Lamme
Guildmaster
Registered: 2005-08-21
Posts: 8597

Re: Speculation, speculation

But this is very fishy. It anything near that applied, we would see much more death due to missed/failed abolish. I think, maybe-perhaps?

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#8 2010-03-15 11:38:42

Kaini
Guild Member
Registered: 2006-12-16
Posts: 398

Re: Speculation, speculation

Not entirely true: I did a lot MC'ing in NAxx with 0 hit on my gear, and it was not that common for mC to break early, it only happened occasionally.


The cliques of artists and writers consist for the most part of a racket selling amusement to people who at all costs must be prevented from thinking themselves vulgar, and a conspiracy to call it not amusement but art. (Collingwood 1938: 90)

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#9 2010-03-15 12:23:27

Lamme
Guildmaster
Registered: 2005-08-21
Posts: 8597

Re: Speculation, speculation

Exactly, that's why I'm doubtful whether normal hit applies.

My educated guess would be sometihng like this - dispells are treated like a spell and are by deafult hit capped. However, the old 1% random caster miss rate applies. Just a guess, but more in line with numbers we've seen and people report.

Last edited by Lamme (2010-03-15 12:24:33)

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#10 2010-03-15 12:26:50

Fairmont
Guild Member
From: The Netherlands
Registered: 2009-09-07
Posts: 560
Website

Re: Speculation, speculation

Okay first of all, Mind Control and Abolish Disease are something completely different. Namely, Mind Control is a spell used ON the target and in theory you needed 6% spellhit to negate any resists (in the case of Razuvious fight where the Understudy is lvl 82). This was also confirmed (and later fixed to 0% afaik).

Now, the Necrotic Plague is a debuff on a friendly target from a lvl 83 (boss level) target. Dispelling/cleansing a friendly target is not the same as offensive dispelling. Offensive dispelling works the same like normal spells on a target (i.e. 17% hitcap on bosses).

It is unknown what the exact required percentage of spellhit is to negate the failed dispels/cleanses on friendly targets (thus defensive dispelling/cleansing). Something is indeed very strange and it also looks like there is a fixed percentage of these failed dispels/cleanses.

Also, it is possible that your Dispell Magic and/or Abolish Disease do hit the target (thus not resisting), but the ability itself does fail to dispel/cleanse the debuff due to the spellhit requirements (or due to the fixed fail chance).

So at the end I think that there is 1) a fixed percentaGe of failed dispels/cleanses and 2) a fixed percentage of resistsed dispels/cleanses which can be lowered by spellhit. However the amount needed is certainly not 17% because it is defensive dispelling. Yet there is still a chance it resists, where some people say the percentage is 3% which can't be lowered. Though I could not find any confirmations on that so I highly doubt it.

Last but not least there is no difference between Abolish Disease and Cure Disease . The tooltip may indicate otherwise but the mechanics are completely the same. Both abilities are confirmed to be able to resists/fail to cleanse.

Last edited by Fairmont (2010-03-15 12:39:04)

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#11 2010-03-15 18:21:02

Kaini
Guild Member
Registered: 2006-12-16
Posts: 398

Re: Speculation, speculation

Just to be clear, I meant the chance of MC breaking early, not being interely resisted.

I remember reading, that MC had  "hit check" every few seconds after it was applied to determine if it breaks or not. This effect is not against a hostile target, but a pet, since after the initial MC hit the target is friendly. This lead me to think that it could be under some similar mechanics than already applied Abolish Disease. Should we use terms as spell hitting and effect hitting to avoid confusion?


The cliques of artists and writers consist for the most part of a racket selling amusement to people who at all costs must be prevented from thinking themselves vulgar, and a conspiracy to call it not amusement but art. (Collingwood 1938: 90)

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#12 2010-03-15 19:34:22

Mox
Officer
From: Norway - Oslo
Registered: 2007-09-03
Posts: 1493

Re: Speculation, speculation

Fairmont wrote:

Also, it is possible that your Dispell Magic and/or Abolish Disease do hit the target (thus not resisting), but the ability itself does fail to dispel/cleanse the debuff due to the spellhit requirements (or due to the fixed fail chance).

This is the case. The buff is applied to the target, but the debuff is not removed. My theroy is that if I cast the buff before 2 seconds have passed, then my buff would have two attempts at removing the debuff. This is however counter productive and leads to more problems than it sloves. It can be done on the tank, but not anyone that should run away.


Retired Priest master.

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#13 2010-03-15 20:02:07

Fairmont
Guild Member
From: The Netherlands
Registered: 2009-09-07
Posts: 560
Website

Re: Speculation, speculation

Kaini wrote:

Just to be clear, I meant the chance of MC breaking early, not being interely resisted.

I remember reading, that MC had  "hit check" every few seconds after it was applied to determine if it breaks or not. This effect is not against a hostile target, but a pet, since after the initial MC hit the target is friendly. This lead me to think that it could be under some similar mechanics than already applied Abolish Disease. Should we use terms as spell hitting and effect hitting to avoid confusion?

Okay that sure makes sense yes. However I doubt it is similiar mechanic. Defensive dispelling still is much different than the hit check you mentioned and I assume this hit check is based on the level of the enemy NPC you MC'd at first. I could be totally wrong though, just assuming here smile

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#14 2010-03-15 20:36:35

Kaini
Guild Member
Registered: 2006-12-16
Posts: 398

Re: Speculation, speculation

At this point assuming is pretty much all we can in my opinion, so every idea should be thought through and tested if somehow possible. Who know, it might even be spell penetration that affects the fail percentage. I think brainstorming can only do good here, maybe someone will have an epiphany on my random ideas in Dr. House style and solve the case. wink


The cliques of artists and writers consist for the most part of a racket selling amusement to people who at all costs must be prevented from thinking themselves vulgar, and a conspiracy to call it not amusement but art. (Collingwood 1938: 90)

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#15 2010-03-16 15:17:34

Fairmont
Guild Member
From: The Netherlands
Registered: 2009-09-07
Posts: 560
Website

Re: Speculation, speculation

Mox wrote:

Fairmont wrote:

Also, it is possible that your Dispell Magic and/or Abolish Disease do hit the target (thus not resisting), but the ability itself does fail to dispel/cleanse the debuff due to the spellhit requirements (or due to the fixed fail chance).

This is the case. The buff is applied to the target, but the debuff is not removed. My theroy is that if I cast the buff before 2 seconds have passed, then my buff would have two attempts at removing the debuff. This is however counter productive and leads to more problems than it sloves. It can be done on the tank, but not anyone that should run away.

Yes it seems like it. But what if you just use it after 3 seconds like normal (target is out of the raid) and use the Abolish Disease again right after the GCD (so at ~4.5 secs max). So, not waiting for the Abolish Disease to tick again (which would be too late anyway). Is this a good workaround?

At the end it's only in phase 1 fortunately.

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#16 2010-03-16 16:14:17

Mox
Officer
From: Norway - Oslo
Registered: 2007-09-03
Posts: 1493

Re: Speculation, speculation

I can remove the filter that hides debuffs on players with Abolish Disease. That way I cen see if it was successfull or not and try again, but first cast will normally happen later than 3 seconds. It's rarly possible to react and then move far enough in 3 seconds. We even have some players not moving far enough in 5 seconds.


Retired Priest master.

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#17 2010-03-16 17:49:15

Fairmont
Guild Member
From: The Netherlands
Registered: 2009-09-07
Posts: 560
Website

Re: Speculation, speculation

Well it should be possible though. If people just wake up and react right away. You get a big-ass warning so I don't see why people can't move right away. Three seconds is doable, but it somehow seems hard for some.

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